In the ever-evolving landscape of global politics, statements made by influential leaders can generate significant discussion and debate. Recently, a clip from the YouTube channel ‘Triggernometry’ featuring former UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson sparked attention with his claims regarding conversations with Russian President Vladimir Putin. In this blog post, we take a closer look at Johnson’s statements, examining their accuracy and context. As we delve into the nuances of his remarks, we’ll also assess the broader implications of such discussions in today’s geopolitical climate. Join us as we embark on a fact-checking journey to discern truth from rhetoric in the realm of international affairs.
Find a fact check of this transcript on CheckForFacts
Transcript:
[00:00:00,779]: Did you have any one on one conversations with Vladimir Putin [00:00:05,360]: I did I did [00:00:06,559]: What was he saying to you [00:00:06,860]: It was an incredibly depressing conversation [00:00:10,640]: Have you been shocked by Trump’s approach to this situation [00:00:18,139]: No absolutely not [00:00:21,200]: We hadn’t got a clear strategy anymore [00:00:23,620]: And so you needed someone to come in and say right I’m going to try and make peace which is what the president is trying to do [00:00:28,860]: Boris with all respect let me ask the question before you answer it [00:00:32,900]: But no no but there’s another part to it Boris [00:00:35,299]: But wait but wait [00:00:35,939]: What they wanted was to take back control [00:00:38,959]: In order to do what [00:00:39,900]: To take back control [00:00:40,560]: In order to do what [00:00:41,500]: In order to leave things the same or make them worse [00:00:44,959]: Rishi Sunak just said stop the boats was the wrong slogan [00:00:47,520]: We went too far [00:00:48,279]: He was wrong [00:00:48,459]: We should have [00:00:49,680]: No no the problem was that they didn’t do what I told them to do [00:00:56,279]: No no no hold on hold on [00:00:57,959]: No no Boris I’m not going to let you get away with this [00:01:00,720]: You say [00:01:01,439]: No I’m not [00:01:02,159]: You must [00:01:02,720]: I refuse [00:01:04,040]: The same way it’s like [00:01:05,080]: You can’t get a question in edgeways [00:01:06,940]: Boris [00:01:09,720]: Boris Johnson [00:01:10,660]: Yes hello [00:01:11,360]: Thank you Constantine [00:01:12,540]: Thank you very much having me on the show [00:01:13,940]: Francis [00:01:14,339]: It’s great to have you here [00:01:15,440]: Great great [00:01:15,940]: Thanks for joining us [00:01:17,220]: I’ve just got off a plane from Washington [00:01:19,500]: So forgive me if I’m you know a bit blurry in my [00:01:23,839]: Well we might forgive you [00:01:25,160]: The audience might not forgive you but it doesn’t matter [00:01:26,959]: They’ll have to lump it [00:01:28,639]: They will indeed [00:01:29,879]: They’ll have to lump it [00:01:30,339]: So let’s get to the lumping it part [00:01:32,800]: You’ve just come back from Washington [00:01:34,319]: And this is really one of the big things we wanted to talk to you about which is of course Ukraine [00:01:38,199]: Yes [00:01:39,480]: The question that I think a lot of people would want to know and cards on the table we’ve always been very pro Ukraine [00:01:44,199]: We raised money for Ukraine etc [00:01:46,839]: Is why were you so strong at the beginning of this war to get the Western world to support Ukraine [00:01:55,000]: What is the rationale [00:01:56,099]: Because I don’t think that has ever been articulated in a powerful way to people [00:02:00,279]: I think it’s very simple [00:02:03,059]: I felt enraged and in a way guilty that this appalling and irrational thing had happened on my watch as it were [00:02:15,979]: You know there I was a prime minister of a G7 country a P5 country a nuclear power [00:02:23,300]: And we’d been unable to persuade Putin not to do something so completely self destructive and clearly destructive of Ukraine [00:02:36,979]: And it was enraging [00:02:40,080]: And I was disgusted at what he was doing [00:02:47,339]: And I felt that it was [00:02:49,820]: I felt that there were so many lies he was telling [00:02:55,220]: About the reasons why he was invading Ukraine [00:02:59,839]: And they were not falling entirely on deaf ears [00:03:03,139]: And people were saying you know you still hear it [00:03:06,880]: We poked the bear [00:03:09,220]: It was the fault of the West for encouraging the Ukrainians to pursue NATO membership [00:03:16,059]: We should never have done that [00:03:17,699]: And it’s total nonsense [00:03:19,059]: Why is that total nonsense [00:03:19,899]: It’s total nonsense [00:03:21,259]: Why [00:03:21,839]: Because the simple fact is and Putin knew this very well there was not the remotest chance there was not a snowball’s chance in hell of Ukraine joining NATO in 2020 [00:03:39,220]: As things stood in 2022 when Putin launched his full scale invasion there was not a snowball’s chance in hell of Ukraine joining NATO for decades in the foreseeable future [00:03:50,279]: I’ll tell you why [00:03:51,679]: Because the black balls the countries voting no they would have looked like sheep droppings [00:03:59,520]: I mean there would have been so many black balls right [00:04:01,199]: Because not just the Hungarians the French the Germans the Americans weren’t on for extending their nuclear guarantee to a huge country 45 million people you know second biggest country in Europe by land area [00:04:15,720]: You know colossal country [00:04:18,380]: It was not going to happen [00:04:19,980]: There were very few actual proponents of Ukrainian membership then in 2022 [00:04:26,760]: It wasn’t going to happen in a you know till the hell froze over the Greek calends whatever however you want to put it [00:04:32,899]: And Putin knew that [00:04:34,459]: So what’s his motivation [00:04:35,459]: Well his motivation was very clear [00:04:38,220]: His motivation was to um after 20 years in power to galvanize public opinion in Russia behind a nationalist adventure to boost his own standing and to I’m a sadly to some extent he’s been successful [00:05:01,179]: I mean people have people do tend to rally behind the leader in time of war [00:05:05,859]: A lot of Russians have instinctively done that [00:05:08,380]: I think he hated that as a former KGB man he hated the collapse of the Soviet empire [00:05:16,600]: And he was on record as saying it was the biggest catastrophe of the 20th century [00:05:22,899]: He wanted to rebuild it [00:05:24,820]: And you know it’s actually all there in his crazy kind of Nostradamus essay about what Ukraine is [00:05:32,220]: Um and he thought it was basically um the origins of the spiritual origins of Russian culture and should be reunited with Russia [00:05:44,000]: And that was in complete contradiction of course of what the Ukrainians wanted [00:05:47,959]: They voted in 1991 to be a free sovereign independent country [00:05:52,500]: And I think that his motives were entirely cynical [00:05:58,119]: He thought he did it I think because he thought that the West would acquiesce as they had in 2014 [00:06:05,959]: And he thought that he would conquer Ukraine very speedily [00:06:09,459]: He thought that it would be over very very soon [00:06:12,779]: I think he also probably calculated that um the oil price would spike and that that would be good for Russia [00:06:20,880]: And that for a long time he would be able to finance you know for as long as it took [00:06:24,480]: And I think he miscalculated how long it would take but he thought that he would benefit from an oil price spike that would you know more than finance the cost of the war [00:06:33,480]: As it happened the war’s been ruinously expensive for him but he was certainly right in that short term calculation [00:06:41,059]: I think it was an entirely cynical thing [00:06:44,519]: Ukraine was no conceivable threat to Putin at the time [00:06:49,260]: Absolutely no threat [00:06:50,399]: And you know the whole point about Ukraine is it had been disarmed [00:06:56,119]: We’d done it [00:06:57,380]: I mean I think you know if you asked your question was you know why was I so worked up about it [00:07:02,679]: I mean partly it was you know a feeling of responsibility because of as a UK prime minister because after all in 1994 under the Budapest memorandum we had told the Ukrainians you’ve got to give up your 1700 nuclear warheads [00:07:25,660]: But we will protect you [00:07:27,779]: France Britain America and of course absurdly Russia said that they would protect Ukraine in the event of attack [00:07:35,220]: And actually we didn’t do that in 2014 [00:07:37,200]: And then again in 2022 we didn’t [00:07:43,160]: And the best plan I could see was when the disaster started to unfold in January [00:07:54,839]: But actually before then you could really start to get the evidence that it was going to go wrong [00:07:59,299]: The best plan I could see was to get weapons to the Ukrainians as fast as possible [00:08:04,160]: And so from the autumn onwards [00:08:08,459]: When did you know he was going to invade [00:08:09,799]: Well I think his essay was back in July of the previous year [00:08:14,859]: I think I mean I might be wrong about that but it was back in the previous summer [00:08:18,559]: And to his great credit Ben Wallace the Defence Secretary then Defence Secretary said you’ve got to read this [00:08:28,200]: Privacy is you know it’s totally bonkers [00:08:31,260]: But you know I really think he means it [00:08:33,260]: I really think he’s going to invade [00:08:34,979]: Ben thought that back in the summer [00:08:37,599]: I did read it [00:08:39,239]: I thought it was spooky and chilling [00:08:42,340]: And so one of the things that we did was to begin I think from August I can’t remember exactly when but we started a process to try to get the javelin not the javelins the NLAWs which were made in Belfast to Ukraine [00:09:03,200]: And I’ve got to tell you that was not easy because there was a lot of anxiety in the system about doing things that would provoke Putin [00:09:16,900]: This became a constant argument as the whole thing developed [00:09:20,059]: You remember you know people said we can’t do X Y and Z because it’s escalatory [00:09:23,460]: If you give Putin as you say if you give the Ukrainians weapons of one particular kind Putin will be provoked and he’ll do something even more aggressive [00:09:35,840]: And this was a continuing theme [00:09:37,559]: Actually he’d already decided he was going to try to take over and wipe out Ukraine [00:09:42,179]: So he was the guy who wanted to escalate [00:09:45,239]: Did you have any one on one conversations with Vladimir Putin [00:09:48,880]: I did [00:09:49,539]: I did [00:09:49,900]: What was he saying to you [00:09:51,960]: Well I give an account of it actually in the book Unleashed [00:09:58,260]: But it was an incredibly depressing conversation because he you know he repeated his assertions that Ukraine could be a kind of threat to Russia [00:10:12,880]: And I think he made the point that if you know ICBMs were stationed missiles were stationed in Ukraine then there’d be a very short distance for him to travel to Moscow from Ukraine [00:10:27,359]: How could he put up with this security [00:10:28,739]: I said look you know everybody knows there’s no plan to put missiles on Ukraine [00:10:37,000]: So that’s totally not there’s total nonsense [00:10:38,539]: Nor was there [00:10:39,460]: Absolutely not [00:10:40,580]: As I say there was no plan to get Ukrainians to NATO [00:10:43,359]: They hadn’t even got a membership action plan [00:10:45,179]: They’d got nothing [00:10:46,159]: I mean yes back in 2008 at the Bucharest summit um George Bush the US president had said very strongly well look we’ve got a problem here with Ukraine [00:11:01,340]: It doesn’t have a security guarantee [00:11:04,500]: Look you know logically its position is very difficult [00:11:07,000]: We should get them in [00:11:08,080]: They want to be and we should get them in [00:11:09,359]: And actually it was then [00:11:10,340]: And it was the Europeans who said no [00:11:13,159]: And the French and the Germans in particular [00:11:15,520]: I mean looking back it might’ve been a good thing if we had got them in there but we didn’t [00:11:19,460]: And as I say in 2022 there was no prospect of that changing [00:11:24,280]: Um so Putin focused on all that [00:11:27,900]: And he was obsessed with um stirring up that issue trying to make it look as though NATO was being expansionist [00:11:38,080]: And all I can say is it really wasn’t [00:11:40,020]: You know I was in every important NATO meeting from 2016 to 2022 either as foreign secretary or PM [00:11:48,739]: And the idea that you know Ukraine was about to be put into NATO is complete nonsense [00:11:54,700]: It just it just wasn’t um on the agenda of the alliance then [00:11:59,039]: I mean it should be now because of what Putin’s done [00:12:04,059]: I mean like Ukraine has now joined the unhappy ranks of so many other countries in Central and Eastern Europe that have been invaded by Russia [00:12:14,219]: You know why is Poland [00:12:16,280]: Why is Hungary [00:12:17,020]: Why is Czechoslovakia [00:12:19,799]: Why is all the Baltic states [00:12:22,619]: Why are Finland members of NATO now [00:12:25,179]: Because they’ve all been invaded by Russia in the last 100 years [00:12:28,239]: Very very violently [00:12:29,500]: And so and so is Ukraine [00:12:30,359]: The long term solution is still to get Ukraine into NATO in my view [00:12:34,739]: And that’s why I think Kirstarmer is right to say that um Ukraine is on an irreversible path to NATO membership [00:12:41,719]: But so so that so that was the that was the sort of conversation [00:12:44,500]: Um it was a pretty creepy conversation [00:12:49,000]: Um I remember the interpreter afterwards saying he’d been very familiar with me and sort of used it because he spoke in Russian [00:12:55,859]: He has good English but he spoke in Russian in that conversation [00:12:58,320]: They said he he’d used um um the the more uh what’s what’s the word [00:13:04,359]: The more familiar form of of address [00:13:07,739]: Um [00:13:07,979]: To rather than void [00:13:09,099]: To rather than void [00:13:09,679]: I see yeah [00:13:10,320]: And um [00:13:12,619]: Which would be a sign of disrespect actually [00:13:15,500]: I’m from Russia originally [00:13:16,880]: And I and I I thought ha um what what he’s what he’s really doing is he’s not taking this seriously [00:13:23,640]: He was in and and you know he wasn’t really listening [00:13:28,599]: He’d already decided [00:13:29,359]: His mind was made up [00:13:30,000]: He’d already decided [00:13:31,320]: Let me ask you something else [00:13:32,479]: So and it’s interesting because I want to put this on the table and I want to get your reaction [00:13:35,719]: I came to this interview um having heard that you went to Kiev uh and told them not to sign whatever agreement was made in Istanbul [00:13:47,619]: Oh thank you [00:13:48,780]: Um and this is a talking point that’s been extensive [00:13:51,640]: This is a Kremlin point talking point [00:13:53,260]: Hold on [00:13:53,520]: Agreed [00:13:54,159]: So uh well not agreed but but I came into this interview ready to ask you about that [00:13:59,239]: And then I went and looked at where that claim comes from [00:14:02,619]: And it comes from various right wing publications online [00:14:06,739]: Uh that’s all linked to an interview with David Rachman who was the Ukraine’s chief negotiator in those negotiations [00:14:13,760]: And I went and watched the video and I speak Russian and I can understand Ukraine [00:14:17,020]: He says no such thing [00:14:18,099]: On the contrary he says you didn’t interfere and they didn’t want to sign because they didn’t trust Russia [00:14:24,780]: Uh they didn’t want to sign a neutrality agreement because what they thought was we’re going to sign this [00:14:29,059]: They’re going to get ready to innovate fully [00:14:31,559]: And then then we’re going to be caught with our pants down [00:14:35,140]: That’s essentially what he said [00:14:37,559]: So um is there any truth though that you know in your moral outrage at what Putin had done you didn’t consider the how realistic it was to get the Ukrainians actually to quote unquote win this war [00:14:51,580]: And the victory conditions were never clearly defined [00:14:54,599]: Obviously it was never going to be the Ukrainian flag flying over the Kremlin and people will argue and this is what I want to get your reaction to is now we are in a position where a better deal might have been available in 2022 without a million people being killed on both sides [00:15:11,960]: Do you think that’s a that’s a credible argument [00:15:15,380]: No you can’t be more Ukrainian than the Ukrainians [00:15:18,320]: Right [00:15:18,479]: And I passionately support Ukraine but it’s up to people in Ukraine the government of Ukraine to decide uh when they’re going to negotiate what their [00:15:27,940]: Yes [00:15:28,440]: But if you’d said to them and the US president said to them we’re not giving you any support they wouldn’t have fought because they knew they were not going to stand a chance [00:15:35,599]: Okay [00:15:35,780]: Well so so first of all I think it would have been totally wrong to leave Ukraine to be engulfed by by the Russians [00:15:44,020]: And and that’s that’s frankly what would have happened if we hadn’t given them the end laws and the javelins which Donald Trump uh actually gave them [00:15:53,559]: If they hadn’t started to get quite a big pipeline of Western support I think it is well possible that Putin could have won that war you know quite quickly [00:16:02,619]: And and [00:16:03,280]: But there was no deal to be that’s what I’m getting at [00:16:05,299]: Was there a deal for the Ukrainians [00:16:07,559]: If they knew from day one we’re not going to get Western support we’re going to have to do a deal with this guy [00:16:12,440]: They were not going to do a deal [00:16:13,539]: No because Putin well I mean you know you may maybe you disagree but I think Putin if you if you read the essay if you look at what he was trying to do his war aims were very simple [00:16:22,320]: It was war aims were to reabsorb Ukraine into into the Russian empire and to make it effectively part of Russia make it a a a vassal state [00:16:30,900]: That’s that was very very clear [00:16:32,179]: The whole thing he wanted Kiev right [00:16:34,500]: He didn’t there wasn’t uh and so in a when I went to you know to your to back to the Kremlin kind of talking point you know ah Boris Johnson went to to Kiev at the behest of Joe Biden uh to tell the Ukrainians not to do a deal with Putin [00:16:49,159]: That’s the the Kremlin line [00:16:51,599]: It is a complete lie [00:16:53,260]: And so first of all I had no discussions with Joe Biden or indeed with um with anybody else in the in America before going for for operations of operational security at the time because it was you know we we didn’t know the risks of of going to Kiev [00:17:08,280]: Uh exactly [00:17:09,739]: Um I went basically because I wanted to vividly to to show the UK’s support and also to to demonstrate you know to to our public and as much to everybody else that they’d achieved a stunning thing [00:17:28,160]: They kicked the Russians out of Kiev and out of that area [00:17:31,520]: And Kiev was now a safe place to visit [00:17:33,300]: And the only way to make that point of show solidarity into um and to make that point was to go was to go in person and [00:17:41,809]: It’s true that you know we had long long conversations with Volodymyr Zelensky and you know I told him you know I said I said well what is it was obvious I said on behalf of the British government and huge numbers of British people how much we admired what he had done [00:18:00,829]: We couldn’t be more Ukrainian than the Ukrainians obviously if they wanted to to do a deal if they found if they saw an alternative that was for them [00:18:11,669]: But all I said was that if they were going to fight on then clearly they would have our support [00:18:18,469]: And I don’t think there was any there was not any chance that they would they could have done the deal [00:18:23,709]: If you remember that stage April 2022 Putin occupied far more land in Ukraine than he does now [00:18:31,109]: Far more [00:18:32,169]: And you know they hadn’t yet kicked them out of Kharkiv and Kursan and all the other places [00:18:37,989]: And you know Putin was in a much more dominating position [00:18:43,609]: He was asking for Ukrainian armed forces to be cut to a rump [00:18:48,949]: He was asking for neutrality for you know all sorts of changes to Ukrainian constitution things that they couldn’t accept [00:18:57,789]: He was basically asking things that were totally impossible [00:19:00,549]: Did he want Zelensky gone [00:19:02,389]: Have you ever read a headline or watched a clip and immediately made up your mind about a story only to later find out there was more to it [00:19:09,889]: We’ve all been there [00:19:11,049]: The news isn’t always as straightforward as it seems [00:19:13,849]: And that’s where Ground News comes in [00:19:16,089]: It helps you compare coverage from across the media spectrum so you can see the full picture for yourself [00:19:21,409]: Ground News is the website and app I use to cut through the noise and actually see the bigger picture [00:19:26,269]: It doesn’t just show you the news [00:19:28,129]: It shows you who’s covering it how they’re framing it and what they’re leaving out [00:19:32,709]: A feature that I use a lot is the blind spot feed [00:19:35,409]: For me this is a game changer [00:19:37,989]: It highlights stories that either the left or the right are ignoring so you can be sure you’re not missing crucial details [00:19:44,409]: For example here’s a story I found on Ground News that got almost no coverage from the right [00:19:49,549]: Honda to produce next Civic in Indiana not Mexico due to US tariffs [00:19:53,669]: And here’s one you’d miss if you only read the left leaning outlets [00:19:57,049]: South Africa rejects must claim Stalin can’t operate there because he’s not black [00:20:01,749]: With Ground News you don’t just read the headlines [00:20:04,049]: You get insightful data on bias distribution source reliability and media coverage [00:20:09,489]: No other platform offers this level of analysis [00:20:12,289]: Right now Trigonometry fans can get 40 off the unlimited vantage plan the same plan that we use [00:20:18,269]: Just click the link in the description or scan the QR code and subscribe at ground news trigonometry [00:20:24,569]: Your subscription doesn’t just keep you informed [00:20:26,969]: It helps bring transparency back to the media [00:20:29,669]: That’s something we can all get behind [00:20:32,529]: Did he want Zelensky gone [00:20:34,589]: Of course [00:20:35,409]: Of course he wanted [00:20:36,129]: I mean I don’t remember the conditions he was setting at the time [00:20:40,889]: But they were not conditions that any I think that any my views any Ukrainian president could have accepted [00:20:52,009]: And you know you’ve got to remember that Volodymyr Zelensky is not he’s not an unreasonable guy [00:21:02,149]: He’s you know he got elected really as a peacenik [00:21:05,789]: You know he was out that you know in 2019 he tried to do a deal with Putin [00:21:12,289]: As far as I can remember his basic problem was that the you know Ukrainian nationalists couldn’t accept the compromise and you know you can see why not [00:21:27,849]: I mean Putin had invaded their country in 2014 [00:21:30,509]: He’d taken bits of land already [00:21:33,629]: And people were incredibly angry [00:21:36,729]: And they asked us but look this is all sort of long winded way of saying that no I had I had no all I was trying to do was show visible support and say look you know and as I say you can’t be more Ukrainian than the Ukrainians [00:21:48,829]: If you’re going to settle then that’s a matter for you [00:21:52,509]: If you’re going to fight on then you can count on our support [00:22:00,729]: That’s what I said [00:22:02,189]: And I think that people can judge whether I mean leaving aside my advice to President Zelensky then people can judge whether or not he did the right thing in fighting on by what happens now [00:22:23,989]: And I think actually when you look at it that there is a very good chance that out of all this there will come a free sovereign secure Ukraine [00:22:44,789]: And that would not have happened if you’d left it if you’d done a deal in April 2022 [00:22:51,869]: It would not have been a sovereign Ukraine [00:22:53,829]: It would not have been a free Ukraine [00:22:56,289]: And it would have been run by Russia and by Putin [00:23:02,689]: And it would not have had any chance of continuing on its journey towards democracy free institutions and engagement with the West [00:23:13,789]: And that’s basically what the Ukrainians want [00:23:16,449]: And Putin would have stopped it [00:23:18,889]: And so I think a lot of Ukrainians I mean I can’t you know I think a lot of Ukrainians would say what they did was completely right [00:23:30,809]: I have a lot of friends in Ukraine who would back that up [00:23:33,569]: And you are very popular in Ukraine because of the support that you gave on behalf of [00:23:37,469]: Well look I will continue to support it for as long [00:23:41,909]: And you know clearly I’m also hopeful that there can be peace right [00:23:51,569]: You know I don’t want [00:23:53,129]: Nobody wants conflict for the sake of conflict [00:23:57,209]: And I actually think that what is happening now is you know there is the possibility [00:24:06,069]: You can see the germ of a solution [00:24:09,549]: So the Ukrainians you know under the Resources Agreement the Minerals Agreement with the United States they get a partnership with the most powerful country an economic long term economic partnership the most powerful country on earth [00:24:25,249]: America commits to a free sovereign secure Ukraine [00:24:28,169]: America commits under the Minerals Deal and other bits of the agreement which it’s about like a 200 page agreement but it commits the U S to long term support for the security of Ukraine [00:24:38,889]: I mean the beginnings of a security guarantee are already in that Minerals Agreement [00:24:43,109]: Then you’ve also got the element of the Europeans you know led by the Brits and the French coming in with this you know admittedly symbolic but important reassurance force or whatever we’re gonna call it [00:24:59,829]: You know European Western boots on the ground boots from all over the place but on the ground in Ukraine to make visible to Putin the reality of Ukraine’s choice that as a free sovereign country they’ve chosen to invite France and Britain onto their soil [00:25:19,589]: And that’s something at the moment Putin says he can’t accept but we’ll see what we get to [00:25:26,069]: And then when the concession the Ukrainians I think have probably made and you know we haven’t seen the details but by talking to people as I’m sure you have as well the last few days I think clearly what the Trump administration wanted from Ukraine was some sort of recognition of the military reality and that you know for the sake of peace it would be helpful to concede that they can’t immediately reconquer all of the land that’s been lost since 2014 [00:26:05,629]: So they can’t immediately recapture all of 1991 Ukraine and you know that for many Ukrainians even that is a horrible is a terrible thing to have to say but you know I think probably and it’s an awful thing it’s awful to think of Putin retaining possession of this land [00:26:26,509]: It’s awful [00:26:28,089]: But for the sake of peace it looks like they’re willing for the time being to go along with it on the understanding of course that they don’t actually revoke their claim their legal claim to that land [00:26:46,349]: So those would be the elements of the sort of US Ukraine position as it were [00:26:52,849]: So it’s the Minerals Deal with all its implications for security and economic partnership [00:27:01,409]: The European led peace force Brit France whoever peacekeeping force whatever you want to call it wouldn’t actually be a peacekeeping force but it would be there and the symbolic logistics training and all that [00:27:14,789]: And then the temporary acceptance that there can’t be a complete reversal to the status quo anti 2014 [00:27:27,069]: Okay [00:27:27,989]: Now all that you know some bitter pills there for Ukraine to swallow [00:27:35,389]: But now is the time for all that to be put to Putin and some other important things like return those 20 000 children that he’s kidnapped [00:27:48,469]: And now is the time for Donald Trump with all his fire and fury to put the heat on Putin [00:27:56,029]: And that is what obviously I hope we’re going to see in the next few days weeks [00:28:02,089]: Have you been shocked by Trump’s approach to this situation [00:28:07,669]: No [00:28:10,009]: Absolutely [00:28:12,409]: Bluntly [00:28:15,349]: No [00:28:15,869]: I think look what I was trying to argue with people was you know it would be a disaster for Trump [00:28:22,869]: Ah no [00:28:25,649]: But actually I always said wait wait wait [00:28:29,649]: It’s sensible to want this war to end right [00:28:32,229]: I think even Ukrainians you know and I love Ukraine but I think that they want to pause [00:28:39,589]: A lot of people are dying [00:28:41,309]: They don’t want to have to start conscripting the under 25 year olds [00:28:45,789]: You can see the pain of that country [00:28:47,689]: That country has been going through absolute hell [00:28:51,169]: And you know they deserve a break and they deserve to be free [00:28:54,929]: And I think honestly what we were doing in the last couple of years I mean I left office two and a half years ago you know almost three years ago now but what we’ve been doing has not been you know Konstantin you said it right we didn’t have a plan [00:29:16,069]: What was the objective that the West was setting out for Ukraine [00:29:20,069]: What was success supposed to look like [00:29:21,929]: We never said [00:29:23,449]: I mean I said right at the beginning Putin must fail Ukraine must be free and so on [00:29:30,229]: But we sort of lost the sharp edges [00:29:33,089]: And what we were doing was just saying we’ll support you for as long as it takes [00:29:38,429]: And we were kind of holding the Ukrainians coats while they were fighting and dying without actually giving them enough to win [00:29:47,409]: And why were we doing that [00:29:50,089]: Because honestly because it would go back to the same thing that was stopping us giving them stopping the Foreign Office allowing me to send them the the the end laws in the first place because there’s this sort of superstitious apprehension about what Putin might do [00:30:09,569]: And so I mean nuclear weapons people which I think is ridiculous and I don’t believe it’s true [00:30:14,329]: But there’s a sort of [00:30:16,649]: Why is that Boris [00:30:17,609]: Well let me [00:30:18,689]: No go on [00:30:19,169]: I think it’s [00:30:20,429]: Well I’ll tell you why it’s ridiculous because first of all if Putin were to use a tactical nuclear battlefield nuclear weapon let alone if you were to [00:30:36,489]: He won’t use a thermonuclear device against the place he calls the cradle of Russian civilisation [00:30:41,329]: But suppose he were to use battlefield tactical nuclear weapons to intimidate and deter [00:30:47,429]: Well it would be the first use of a nuclear weapon by a belligerent as an act of war since 1945 [00:31:01,209]: He would immediately lose crucially the backing of Xi Jinping [00:31:10,629]: He would lose the backing of all the swing voters in the world [00:31:19,189]: So one of the most frustrating things about backers of Ukraine for people like me who back Ukraine is that you know the Indians a lot of the African countries Latin America you know our friends great great friends of ours in the Gulf you know they’re kind of a bit ambivalent right about Putin and about Ukraine [00:31:39,329]: I mean and that’s been frustrating [00:31:42,289]: But Putin uses a nuke [00:31:45,349]: Different story [00:31:46,629]: Totally [00:31:47,289]: He loses all that global support all that global acquiescence [00:31:52,309]: He scares the pants off his own people because they don’t know what’s going to happen [00:31:59,169]: They think he played the nuclear card that could be nuclear reprisals against us [00:32:04,949]: And he loses a huge amount of domestic support [00:32:07,629]: He’d terrify people [00:32:08,949]: He does incur reprisals from the West [00:32:12,449]: Now he obviously can’t talk about what they would be because the whole doctrine of nuclear deterrence relies on a lot of ambiguity [00:32:19,229]: But there would be very very serious reprisals from NATO countries and from the P5 of a kind that would be deeply destructive [00:32:26,149]: So we gave into his nuclear blackmail [00:32:27,989]: Deeply destructive [00:32:29,709]: And yeah so yeah [00:32:31,549]: That’s what you’re saying [00:32:32,169]: What I’m saying is we gave into the general kind of superstition about Putin you know or about Russia [00:32:40,989]: That Russia is spooky and frightening and is inevitably going to win and we shouldn’t provoke them [00:32:48,409]: It’s the old don’t poke the bear thing [00:32:50,049]: And all the evidence of the Ukraine war has been that the stronger we are the more decisive we are in giving Ukraine what they need the better [00:32:58,689]: So look back to your question you know was I shocked by the Trump approach [00:33:07,869]: No because I think we needed a new approach right [00:33:12,249]: We did need to shake the thing up [00:33:15,289]: We hadn’t got a clear strategy anymore [00:33:17,749]: It had all gone you know for the Ukrainians it was miserable [00:33:20,509]: And so you needed someone to come in and say right I’m going to try and make peace which is what the president is trying to do [00:33:27,929]: And as I said just now I think you can see in that package of proposals that they’ve reached in Riyadh you can see the outlines of something painful though it might be in some ways for Ukraine still keeps a sovereign free Ukraine able to apply for EU membership able to do all sorts of things which Putin finds intolerable [00:33:58,289]: Now the question is going to be what Putin does [00:34:01,089]: And so the challenge now is for Donald Trump to really turn the heat under and there are things he can do [00:34:12,609]: There’s economic sanctions the oil price keeping the oil price down below 60 a barrel which you know maybe Trump could help organise [00:34:26,249]: Putin’s in a very different position because then he can’t fund his war machine in the way that he wants [00:34:32,529]: Then his economy is really in trouble [00:34:34,691]: And you know Trump has a lot of economic leverage over Putin and we need to see that now [00:34:43,671]: Do you think part of the reason that Liam Halligan the economist made this point literally yesterday when we interviewed him that part of the reason Trump is approaching the Ukraine situation in this way is because he doesn’t want to alienate Russia [00:34:57,751]: Because the US’s worst nightmare is Russia being in the arms of China and them having an alliance together [00:35:06,451]: Look I certainly think it’s true that there is a hankering in the Trump circles for you know a renewal of good relations with Russia [00:35:24,531]: And people remember a time you know when I was mayor of London you know I had to preach in Russian about you know whatever that festival is called and you know welcoming people to…welcoming Russians to London and you know the whole place was absolutely you know bristling with oligarchs everywhere and you know in fact we overdid it [00:35:45,951]: But you know it’s not a bad thing on the whole to want peace and friendship with other countries right [00:35:54,071]: As long as they want peace and friendship [00:35:55,331]: As long as they want peace and friendship [00:35:56,751]: And I think you know where the rubber is going to hit the road now is when those guys discover what Putin actually wants [00:36:08,111]: And you know I think…I very much fear that it’s going to be clear in the next few days he doesn’t want peace [00:36:16,031]: And you know he’s not going to give those kids back [00:36:18,591]: He’s not going to agree to the…he’s not going to agree to it [00:36:21,271]: I mean you’ve heard what Lavrov said already about the European force [00:36:24,671]: It was interesting because [00:36:26,391]: He said it would be a catastrophic escalation to have [00:36:30,771]: It’s total nonsense [00:36:31,591]: Well why…a sovereign country should be able to invite whomsoever it chooses [00:36:35,091]: And actually I thought it was quite interesting that President Trump said that Putin had agreed to that [00:36:42,911]: You saw I mean Trump said he…he said I asked him that and he said he didn’t have a problem with it [00:36:48,271]: I’m more or less quoting exactly what the president said about his conversation with Putin [00:36:52,611]: So you know let’s see where we get to because if I were Putin you know…I don’t want to be a spin doctor for Putin right [00:37:05,751]: But if I were Putin I think I could try and explain myself…explain you know yes it’s been a catastrophe for him and he’s lost 850 000 people killed or seriously injured soldiers [00:37:21,171]: It’s been an economic catastrophe but Russia’s you know been able to absorb these losses [00:37:30,691]: The economy actually has you know he’s converted it into a kind of Keynesian you know war economy and it’s actually to some extent worked [00:37:39,491]: I think you know he could say look folks we’re ending the special military operation [00:37:48,311]: It’s been a great success [00:37:52,011]: The undertakings I’ve had from Kiev have reassured me that the Nazis have been removed [00:38:03,551]: I wonder if you laughed but I mean you listened to what Lavrov said [00:38:06,351]: He can sell a win to the Russians [00:38:07,891]: Yeah yeah yeah [00:38:08,591]: Lavrov talked about Nazis in Kiev right [00:38:11,031]: So they believe that it’s full of Nazis [00:38:13,151]: Yeah yeah yeah [00:38:13,731]: So we’ve removed the Nazis it’s like the end of you know Raiders of the Lost Ark when the Nazis all melt down [00:38:22,231]: And so it’s been a great success [00:38:25,971]: In the name of peace Russia is you know we will of course maintain you know the bulk of the lands that we’ve invaded you know that’s where a serious negotiation will have to take place about you know what exactly goes back to Ukraine and what doesn’t now [00:38:48,871]: And I think he connects [00:38:52,331]: So you know to your question about well are we provoking Putin [00:39:00,071]: I think he has you know are we going to provoke him to do something irrational like nuclear weapons [00:39:04,331]: I think he has a lot of political space he can use before he has to do that [00:39:12,771]: I happen to know what he’s very good at is giving the impression to our American friends that he’s the reasonable one [00:39:24,651]: You know he’s a really big whistler but behind me I’ve got these you know real psychos who are ultra nationalists and you know they’re making it much more difficult for me to concede [00:39:33,831]: I think that’s bollocks by the way but that’s what he’s he’s quite effective in persuading people of that [00:39:40,751]: So I think he I think he’s strong [00:39:45,871]: He has the space to make a concession and get out [00:39:53,571]: A deal can be done I hear you [00:39:55,071]: I think so [00:39:55,751]: I mean do you agree with me [00:39:56,871]: I mean maybe I just think [00:39:58,511]: We’re going to see over the days to come [00:40:00,971]: We will find out [00:40:02,151]: I want to ask you one other question about Ukraine [00:40:04,031]: And I think and I think it was worth pursuing [00:40:07,211]: So I think I know that a lot of plaster has come off the ceiling in the chancellories of Europe about the way you know President Trump has handled it and the way that it went 10 days ago or so in the Oval Office and everybody’s you know been freaking out and saying it’s the end of the Atlantic Alliance and blah blah fish cakes [00:40:26,391]: And I don’t I don’t think that’s true [00:40:28,431]: I don’t think that’s true [00:40:29,291]: I want to ask you one other question about this Russia thing and then I want to move on to domestic issues [00:40:34,571]: You know how coffee gets you going in the morning but a few hours later that caffeine crash hits [00:40:40,511]: What if I told you there’s a way to make your coffee work smarter for you [00:40:43,911]: That’s where AlphaCell’s Neuromagnesium comes in [00:40:46,931]: It’s a game changer because it combines magnesium with L theanine an amino acid found in green tea known for its relaxation and cognitive benefits [00:40:56,491]: When paired with caffeine L theanine creates a synergistic effect releasing energy slowly over time for sustained focus without the jitters or the crash [00:41:08,471]: 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that in your time this is something I’ve always thought about and I’ve said publicly quite a bit about this too [00:42:15,171]: You mentioned your time as mayor of London oligarchs everywhere [00:42:19,531]: In those days I was proud [00:42:22,151]: When I was mayor of London I said that we had more billionaires in London than any other city in the world [00:42:27,831]: I was very proud of that [00:42:28,491]: I said that London is to the billionaires as the jungles of Sumatra are to the orangutan [00:42:32,271]: It is their natural habitat [00:42:35,871]: People nowadays get very cross and they think it’s all terrible they should be hung from the lampposts [00:42:41,251]: But actually I would go back to that [00:42:44,571]: And I think what we’ve done by the way you know for the first time it’s a disaster [00:42:52,751]: We’re kicking these people out [00:42:54,051]: I agree with you [00:42:54,671]: I go around the world now and I meet so many people who say London is the greatest place in the world [00:43:00,431]: This is what it’s like [00:43:00,771]: You can’t get a question in Edgeworth [00:43:02,931]: Boris I agree with you about billionaires [00:43:04,971]: I agree that it’s bad that we’re losing wealthy people [00:43:07,351]: I agree with you about all of that [00:43:09,051]: I was talking specifically about Russia and the question I want to ask you is do you think we as a country failed to understand what Vladimir Putin is or had become when he was murdering British citizens on our streets with radioactive poisons [00:43:22,391]: Do you think we failed back then [00:43:24,371]: Because frankly there were too many Russian oligarchs here making a lot of money for people in the city and elsewhere [00:43:30,971]: And because of that we were far too reluctant to go oh this guy is actually a hostile actor [00:43:36,211]: I think when you look at things like the poisoning of Litvinenko and you know remember this poor guy who was a KGB guy and then was poisoned with polonium in that restaurant in London [00:43:52,291]: You know that was terrible [00:43:56,291]: And I think when looking back you can see a certain gingerliness in the way the British state responded to that initially [00:44:04,771]: My memory is that we were a little bit sort of you know we didn’t do total freak out [00:44:10,051]: And I think your point is probably right [00:44:12,911]: I think that we you know we thought we had big equities with Russia [00:44:16,971]: You know maybe there was something you know maybe there was more to the Litvinenko thing than met the eye [00:44:26,471]: And I think it is true that politicians from you know Bill Clinton Hillary Clinton onwards you know David Cameron all of us everybody always thought that there should be a reset with Russia at some stage [00:44:50,171]: And everybody who tried it ended up being bitterly disappointed [00:44:54,691]: And I got to put my hands up [00:44:56,151]: I tried and I say that I explained it in the book [00:44:57,791]: I mean I had this absolutely appalling I went I did a trip to Moscow when I was foreign secretary and it was absolutely ghastly [00:45:04,231]: And you know we sat in the Soviet not Soviet the Russian [00:45:09,891]: Felt Soviet did it [00:45:11,031]: Felt Soviet [00:45:11,691]: Russian foreign [00:45:12,611]: And I was put in front of this roaring fire and made to drink lots of you know glasses of colored vodka [00:45:19,511]: And it was like being it was like a sort of curious torture made to get very very drunk and very very hot at the same time [00:45:26,251]: And then have to listen to Lavrov’s endless sort of sermonizing [00:45:30,011]: And we achieved nothing absolutely nothing [00:45:32,611]: And then you know I wanted to try and find you know scientific cooperation artistic collaboration things of where Britain and Russia could do you know two great powers that had fought to defeat Nazism and so on all the usual things that you nothing you know nothing [00:45:49,671]: And then a few months later they did the Salisbury poisonings which was an absolute sort of two fingers up to the entire British public [00:45:57,931]: And then they had those guys those goons you know sitting on being interviewed on TV saying you know we visited Salisbury you know that has the tallest spire anywhere in you know in Britain [00:46:12,671]: And you know we went back again the following day because it was too slushy the first day [00:46:18,291]: And you know it was just [00:46:19,571]: As a Russian I find a terrible Russian accent deeply offensive Boris I have to say [00:46:24,771]: I’m triggered [00:46:25,671]: But it was painful right [00:46:28,311]: And they were laughing at us [00:46:29,931]: Yes they were [00:46:30,831]: And then they made him an MP one of those two guys [00:46:33,571]: It’s disgusting [00:46:34,151]: Anyway it was disgusting [00:46:36,291]: So but somehow or other we lost Russia [00:46:44,371]: I still think that [00:46:45,891]: I still think that there was a there could have been a time in the 90s probably quite early on in the 90s where we could have had a different outcome for this thing [00:46:57,491]: I think [00:46:59,411]: Because it is a great country it is an amazing civilization [00:47:03,511]: Of course [00:47:04,471]: And it’s a European civilization [00:47:07,431]: It is [00:47:08,891]: And it’s a it’s a it’s a tragedy [00:47:12,671]: But right now it’s very very hard to fix [00:47:15,711]: And it can only be fixed through strength [00:47:19,251]: Only through strength [00:47:20,331]: Agree with you [00:47:21,871]: Moving to domestic matters Boris you’ve always been you’ve always been a huge fan and supporter of net zero [00:47:31,331]: Why is that Boris [00:47:32,631]: Depends when net zero is achieved [00:47:34,371]: But yes I have [00:47:35,151]: Yeah [00:47:35,351]: I mean I think in the sense that I think [00:47:39,111]: It depends what you mean by always by the way because if you look if you look sadly if you read my [00:47:45,491]: Oh yeah you had a dalliance with Piers Corbyn [00:47:47,591]: Many millions of [00:47:48,831]: Yeah [00:47:49,111]: So millions of words I’ve written on this subject over the over the years I’ve sort of what happened really was I began as a pretty sort of acid vinegary climate skeptic [00:48:07,111]: And so I guess I hated the sort of religiosity of the whole thing [00:48:13,991]: And I hated the way you and people who were doing ordinary things were made to feel bad [00:48:20,711]: And I thought it was very preachy and it was basically all a socialist plot to try to stop people living their lives as they wanted and to sort of coerce people into certain patterns of behavior [00:48:31,031]: And I hated that [00:48:32,271]: And I thought it was like an Aztec religion you know the sun is cross sun will fry us [00:48:39,111]: And we must do if we if we follow certain patterns of if we recycle if we do this and and there you will find terrible articles I wrote saying that you know wind power never pull the skin off rice pudding and all this other stuff [00:48:57,771]: And so I started to change my mind [00:49:01,411]: Basically when I got to City Hall in 2008 when and for a long period of most of my time at City Hall Piers Corbyn was indeed the official city hall meteorologist [00:49:14,511]: It was his evolution since that is very troubling [00:49:18,111]: I know he’s not sound on other issues [00:49:22,031]: And I now think he’s not right [00:49:24,031]: I now think on balance he’s not right about global warming [00:49:27,631]: And so what happened was you know I started really asking a lot of scientists and admittedly that you know there is a you know as we’ve seen in lots of big scientific questions the scientists tend to coalesce around what is the acceptable position very often [00:49:51,131]: But here’s what I thought [00:49:54,231]: And what really changed my mind what there wasn’t a single Damascene moment you know wasn’t looking at a hockey stick graph and thinking my God we’re all going to fry [00:50:03,751]: It was basically intuitive [00:50:05,231]: It was getting up in a plane the whole time as I did as mayor of Lancaster I was doing lots of trade trips and then later as foreign secretary and just seeing what you know when I was born there were about 3 billion people in the world [00:50:20,711]: There are now getting on for 9 billion [00:50:23,591]: It’s a new I mean the change is unbelievable [00:50:28,071]: And you can when you fly over Latin America when you fly over Africa at night and you see the fires burning but all the way up if you fly from the Cape to Cairo overnight in Africa right try it [00:50:45,871]: You look down you see fire after fire after fire the bush the scrub the jungle burning burning burning burning and humanity encroaching everywhere [00:50:57,651]: And you see the destruction that human beings are wreaking on the planet the spread of cities [00:51:07,031]: And I used to look down and just see the huge huge numbers of people [00:51:13,391]: And intuitively I sort of think well look we’re clearly having a colossal environmental impact [00:51:18,431]: You know whichever way you cut it nature is being interfered with on a massive scale [00:51:25,211]: Maybe these guys are right when they talk about the atmosphere [00:51:28,771]: And I thought well look [00:51:30,737]: You remember Pascal’s wager about the existence of God [00:51:34,017]: Yeah you should believe in God just in case he’s real [00:51:36,497]: I thought what’s the downside if we’re wrong [00:51:40,377]: Perfect [00:51:40,737]: Well let me stop you there [00:51:42,497]: Perfect [00:51:43,597]: Perfect [00:51:44,077]: So I thought what’s the downside if we’re wrong [00:51:45,817]: And say wait wait wait I know what you’re going to say the downside is we impoverish people because we invest in lots of crap technologies and we force them to buy electric cars which don’t work [00:51:54,497]: But no no but there’s another part to it Boris [00:51:56,797]: Can I just make the point [00:51:58,237]: Can I just make the point [00:51:58,997]: Yeah yeah yeah [00:51:59,517]: That’s not the only side [00:52:00,357]: That is one side of it [00:52:01,577]: The other side is we are facing an ever more unstable world where geopolitically things have become the conflicts are springing up left right and center [00:52:11,097]: Can we really afford to de industrialize [00:52:13,277]: Can we really afford to shut down steel power plants when we really need to become stronger and more powerful in order to face an ever more unstable world [00:52:23,797]: And our energy prices are four times what they are in the US [00:52:25,837]: I know and they’re crazy [00:52:27,417]: So that’s the trade offs [00:52:28,537]: I know I know [00:52:29,197]: Of this thing that you say is Pascal’s wager [00:52:32,057]: Well yes but [00:52:33,437]: And it costs in this country what 50 billion [00:52:35,657]: But all I’m asking you to believe in is that ultimately all I’m asking all I was asking myself to believe in was that ultimately to bet on a cleaner world and a cleaner technology was long term the right thing to do [00:52:53,137]: And where I agree with you is that we rushed our fences [00:53:01,277]: And you look at the UK energy policy is frankly it’s disastrous how expensive our energy is [00:53:11,477]: And we totally failed to invest enough in nuclear [00:53:16,837]: I mean labor was in for 13 years didn’t build a single nuclear power plant or even start plans for a single I don’t think single nuclear power plant [00:53:28,537]: The Tories came in and you know Lee started things like Hinkley admittedly at vast expense [00:53:33,857]: When I was running it we set up Great British Nuclear which had a plan to build you know really quite a lot of nuclear power [00:53:40,657]: I think nuclear power has got to be part of it [00:53:42,017]: But nuclear power is not as everybody knows the sole answer [00:53:49,977]: For the time being you’ve got to have more hydrocarbons [00:53:53,837]: And I perfectly accept that [00:53:55,717]: But that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t [00:53:59,117]: You shouldn’t care about the environment [00:54:00,317]: No one’s saying that [00:54:01,357]: Well then I think we’re you know we’re in hideous risk of agreement because yes [00:54:05,497]: So all I’m saying is you know it’s like St [00:54:10,257]: Augustine you know make me pure but not yet [00:54:13,317]: Well we’re in risk of agreement on the rhetoric [00:54:15,657]: But I don’t think that your time in government reflects the things that you’re saying to us today [00:54:22,857]: Well I think it did [00:54:23,997]: I mean we’ve had a massive drive on that [00:54:25,317]: The energy prices we have now are partly because when you were in power you either didn’t do anything about it or made that more difficult [00:54:31,917]: Right [00:54:32,237]: No we did [00:54:32,897]: We did huge investments in nuclear [00:54:36,157]: So why hasn’t energy become cheaper [00:54:38,157]: Because we’ve had a massive spike in the oil price largely driven by Ukraine and we haven’t done enough [00:54:43,877]: So why don’t we produce our own oil instead of shutting down [00:54:46,077]: We should do [00:54:46,917]: We should do [00:54:47,457]: And we should be using our own hydrocarbons [00:54:49,737]: I agree [00:54:50,717]: And I actually said that I think several times in the House of Commons [00:54:54,937]: But if you remember sadly in July 2022 I was no longer able to fulfill my mission [00:55:04,977]: Yes [00:55:06,197]: We’ll talk about that in a second [00:55:07,817]: I think most people in this country kind of get it [00:55:18,597]: People instinctively don’t like pollution [00:55:21,037]: They don’t like screwing up the environment [00:55:25,557]: They think that global warming there probably is something in it [00:55:28,957]: Sure [00:55:29,657]: And on the whole if they can get access to clean green technology then they’re going to want to go down that route [00:55:36,257]: Yes but Boris [00:55:37,177]: So the question is how can you do that in a way that [00:55:40,937]: Forgive me but now we’re not even remotely at risk of discussing agreement because I don’t agree with you about most people getting it [00:55:47,997]: Most people if you ask them what is the downside of net zero and how much is it going to cost they would say oh I didn’t know there was a cost [00:55:55,557]: That’s the level of brainwashing we’ve had on this issue [00:55:57,957]: No one talks about the fact that this policy has gigantic trade offs for our economy for our ability to defend our country for our ability to do things like defending Ukraine [00:56:08,057]: We’re basically losing the ability to make military grade steel in this country [00:56:13,077]: And that’s because of net zero [00:56:15,517]: I think all that’s crazy [00:56:16,977]: And by the way we should be putting in special arrangements for places like Port Talbot and all these other crucial critical strategic steelmaking plants [00:56:29,317]: They should have their own power generating capabilities [00:56:33,217]: All right let’s park that there [00:56:34,897]: One other topic [00:56:35,937]: We should definitely do it [00:56:36,497]: One other topic before we go to our supporters [00:56:40,117]: Thanks to today’s sponsor Venice [00:56:43,207]: Have you ever wondered what ChatGPT and Claude are doing with your conversations [00:56:48,057]: We already know that Alexa listens in and suggests products based on what we say [00:56:53,657]: And Meta retargets us based on everything we click on [00:56:58,017]: But think about what we share with AI [00:57:00,417]: Our ideas business strategies personal thoughts sensitive questions and so on [00:57:05,297]: And here’s the kicker [00:57:06,437]: This data isn’t just stored [00:57:08,437]: It’s tied to your identity and passed along to third parties [00:57:12,657]: Sometimes even governments [00:57:14,337]: You might have seen in the news that DeepSeek that AI app everyone’s downloading is actually sending unencrypted data straight to Chinese servers [00:57:23,777]: And here’s the thing [00:57:24,717]: It’s not just Chinese companies we need to worry about [00:57:28,697]: ChatGPT has close ties to government agencies and big tech firms raising important questions about how our data is handled [00:57:36,517]: If you’ve followed trigonometry for long enough you’ll know issues like this are close to our hearts [00:57:43,017]: That’s why we’ve started using Venice AI today’s sponsor [00:57:47,757]: Venice AI is a generative AI platform that is private and permissionless [00:57:52,457]: It doesn’t track you doesn’t sell your data and certainly doesn’t censor your requests [00:57:57,157]: Unlike other AI platforms Venice encrypts your messages and stores them only in your browser not on their servers [00:58:04,417]: No downloads no installations just secure AI straight from your web browser [00:58:08,937]: We use their pro plan which comes with some serious perks [00:58:14,697]: Safe mode off for unhindered image generation [00:58:18,257]: Upload PDFs for summaries or insights [00:58:21,237]: Modify the system to change how it interacts with you [00:58:23,997]: If you want to use AI with privacy freedom and without censorship then right now you can get 20 off a pro plan by clicking the link in the description of this episode and using our code trigonometry [00:58:36,377]: That link is venice ai slash trigonometry [00:58:40,917]: And now back to the show [00:58:42,917]: The one thing that many people feel was a big failure of and this isn’t just you when you were in power it’s the entire conservative government [00:58:53,257]: You pursued Brexit you won Brexit effectively and ultimately you won the 2019 election on the promise to get Brexit done [00:59:03,637]: Brexit I know it’s more complicated and this is a reductive argument slightly but Brexit was basically a referendum on immigration for a lot of people [00:59:14,897]: Like I said it’s a slightly reduced argument from the complexity of it but it was to many many people an opportunity to express how they felt about mass immigration which under the Labour government the Blair government more people came into this country under that government than had come into this country between 1066 and 1950 [00:59:35,377]: Pretty unprecedented extremely unprecedented unprecedented [00:59:40,537]: And they expressed their views in the Brexit referendum with the hope that both mass immigration and illegal immigration in particular which is an irritant to people all over the political spectrum [00:59:51,597]: What they wanted was to take back control [00:59:54,397]: In order to do what [00:59:55,577]: In order to leave things the same or make them worse [00:59:59,677]: So that the politicians could rightly be held to account for the numbers of people coming in [01:00:06,577]: Okay so I’m holding you to account right now [01:00:08,817]: I’m holding you to account right now [01:00:10,337]: So let me do it [01:00:11,877]: We had the Brexit referendum you came in in 2019 and under your government we had what is now being described as the Boris wave in which we had as many if not more people come into this country in a similar period of time [01:00:24,397]: That’s actually if you look at what actually happened the numbers go down [01:00:30,717]: We have a huge number of people leave the country [01:00:32,977]: Because of Covid [01:00:33,577]: Because of Covid [01:00:34,977]: So the whole thing is complete bollocks [01:00:37,577]: You then have a lot of students coming back to complete their courses who push up the numbers in that so called wave [01:00:45,937]: You have of course because we’re talking about 2022 we have a large number of Ukrainians coming in [01:00:54,277]: You have Afghans coming in to whom we owed duty [01:00:58,897]: You also have Hong Kongers [01:01:00,577]: You also have Hong Kongers [01:01:01,877]: What also happened and this was not government policy but it was something that was driven by the Migration Advisory Committee you had a panic if you remember post Covid when nobody could get the shelves [01:01:16,577]: Do you remember this [01:01:17,837]: Nobody could get the shelves stacked [01:01:19,757]: Do you remember leading up to the period when nobody was confident that the crops were going to be picked in the fields [01:01:28,157]: And do you remember when the petrol stations couldn’t get fuel because there was a shortage of lorry drivers and all that [01:01:35,417]: What happened was that the Migration Advisory Committee and we were very worried about social care workers or the officials were [01:01:46,957]: And so yes I think they probably did hand out too many visas too many permits for people plus their dependents to come in under those various schemes [01:01:57,737]: But there were exceptional circumstances caused by Covid [01:02:02,997]: And they were immediately remediable [01:02:06,477]: And why have we got [01:02:07,937]: Because we had taken back control [01:02:10,877]: Hold on Boris I’m not going to let you get away with this [01:02:14,797]: You must [01:02:16,517]: I refuse [01:02:18,577]: There’s a different point [01:02:21,357]: People wanted to take back control [01:02:23,917]: And now even to this day we have tens of thousands of people coming to this country illegally on small boats [01:02:30,377]: How has that taken back control [01:02:32,017]: I’m glad you said that [01:02:34,777]: So Konstantin what you’ve conceded which is the most important point is that we have legal control over the people who seek to apply to Carnia [01:02:43,197]: Now I accept that there were exceptional circumstances after Covid which led to what looked like some big numbers [01:02:48,897]: But as I say there were exceptional reasons for that [01:02:52,377]: Now because we control the numbers coming in legally we can offset for that [01:03:00,477]: And so we can get them right right down do whatever we want [01:03:03,257]: We have zero right [01:03:05,057]: Actually under Keir Starmer thanks to his brilliant policy of persecuting anybody who’s got an ounce of creativity in this country people are fleeing Britain for the first time since the 1970s [01:03:14,977]: I mean it’s a miracle both of you are still here frankly given your talent and enterprise [01:03:20,777]: He’s very good [01:03:22,017]: It’s a miracle [01:03:23,557]: So we have formal control which is the most important thing [01:03:26,737]: And don’t forget what Starmer wants and he would do if he could [01:03:31,497]: No one here is a fan of Keir Starmer [01:03:32,897]: But I think people you know there may be some fans of Keir Starmer watching this and they should know this [01:03:37,157]: I don’t think so [01:03:40,577]: Why are there tens of thousands of people coming to this country on small boats [01:03:44,617]: So first of all Starmer would go back to free movement so 520 million people [01:03:49,177]: Where’s the control [01:03:52,017]: The plan [01:03:53,577]: I hugely admire what [01:03:55,677]: Rishi Sunak just said stop the boats was the wrong slogan [01:03:57,717]: We went too far [01:03:59,777]: No no [01:04:00,737]: The problem was that they didn’t do what I told them to do [01:04:06,677]: The problem was seriously that we should have continued with the Rwanda policy which actually was the only policy that made any sense [01:04:13,677]: And we should not only continue with it we should have developed and expanded it [01:04:16,417]: We should find lots of other partners around the world because they’re queuing up now [01:04:19,737]: And look at what Trump is doing putting people on the plane [01:04:22,637]: That is what people wanted to see [01:04:25,077]: And we would have pulled that off [01:04:26,477]: And as I said in my speech in April 2022 I went down to Dover and I explained to everybody look you’ve got to understand that this is going to take time because the legal objections will be enormous and there will be lawfare against me and people will try to screw this thing up [01:04:47,717]: But we would have got it done [01:04:49,797]: People said we couldn’t get Brexit done [01:04:51,097]: We got Brexit done [01:04:52,777]: But I’m afraid from April to July 2022 wasn’t enough time for me to do it [01:04:56,697]: And then the whole thing lost momentum [01:04:59,197]: We now need obviously to come out of the ECHR the European Convention on Human Rights [01:05:05,657]: We need to [01:05:07,537]: It was clear that the lawyers were going to use everything they could to stop it [01:05:12,437]: But eventually we would have won [01:05:14,177]: And I think the mistake has been to scrap the Rwanda plan and to make us defenceless [01:05:22,097]: And I don’t know what the numbers are now but they seem to be bigger than ever the people coming across the channel [01:05:28,137]: The Rwanda plan was a great great plan [01:05:32,077]: And we should [01:05:34,897]: My advice to Kenny would be to campaign on coming out of the ECHR and reviving Rwanda [01:05:44,057]: Because I agree with you [01:05:45,737]: I think actually the British people [01:05:47,997]: I mean I’ve said what I’ve said about the numbers in 2020 whatever it was 2022 [01:05:53,297]: They were mainly driven by overreaction to Covid [01:05:56,517]: And actually it also turned out by the way that it was a lot of Remain hysteria about European Union nationals [01:06:06,277]: They said [01:06:07,417]: So everybody [01:06:08,537]: The Remain blob said Brexit’s going to be such a nightmare because all the 3 million European Union nationals will flee Britain this leper colony a horrible hateful island that’s voted for Brexit and they’ll never come back [01:06:26,397]: It’ll be a disaster [01:06:27,597]: And actually what happened first of all they grossly underestimated the number [01:06:30,657]: There were in fact 6 million not 3 million [01:06:32,857]: And a lot of them did come back [01:06:34,837]: So you know that certainly helped to change the numbers there [01:06:41,877]: And they got that totally wrong [01:06:44,357]: But the way to fix the problem is to be absolutely ruthless in stopping people coming here illegally and in expelling those who do [01:06:58,917]: And honestly and this is not a popular point of view right now I think that some of the things that the Trump administration are doing are right [01:07:11,637]: And I think that you know he seems to be [01:07:18,177]: I like the Elon Musk cost cutting stuff [01:07:23,357]: Who doesn’t [01:07:24,017]: I like it [01:07:25,637]: And you’ll find in Unleashed I told [01:07:29,097]: I kept telling Rishi that I wanted to see this and I kept telling every government department I wanted to see the slaughtering of the sacred cows [01:07:39,037]: And I kept putting it in [01:07:39,837]: Rishi pointed out that this was against Hindu religion [01:07:43,017]: And this became [01:07:44,377]: I had to try and find another metaphor [01:07:48,997]: But you do need [01:07:51,437]: In government it’s very very hard to cut projects because they’re all the legacy of some bloody politician or senior civil servant [01:08:01,977]: And he goes invested in them [01:08:03,717]: And you can see this problem in the United States now [01:08:06,737]: And people endlessly produce mutilated stumps bleeding stumps to show how cruel you’re being [01:08:13,117]: But you’ve got to do it [01:08:14,957]: And I’ve got to go [01:08:15,997]: You’ve got to go in a few minutes [01:08:17,377]: No no no [01:08:18,017]: I’ve got to go and see a man about to go [01:08:20,377]: Seven minutes [01:08:23,217]: We have military precision on the show [01:08:27,197]: Seven minutes [01:08:28,277]: Seven minutes [01:08:32,037]: This is filibustering in French [01:08:34,217]: I know what’s going on [01:08:35,457]: Anyway our last question [01:08:38,037]: And then we’re going to ask you some questions from our supporters [01:08:40,758]: I might think we might as well go to the supporters [01:08:42,898]: We’ve got seven minutes [01:08:44,077]: Let’s go to the supporters [01:08:45,457]: So we’re heading over to SubSec where you get to ask your questions to Boris [01:08:49,477]: And he’ll answer them in French probably [01:08:51,537]: Yes sure [01:08:53,437]: Why did you think we should do the Swedish model and then decided against it [01:08:57,057]: But if you aren’t happy I believe in freedom [01:09:02,898]: I believe people should blah blah blah [01:09:04,697]: That’s your convictionTranscribe your media with TRNSCRB.
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