In an age where social media and streaming platforms shape public discourse, the representation of complex societal issues has never been more crucial. The YouTube channel ‘Triggernometry’ recently featured William Costello, a doctoral researcher from the University of Austin, who specializes in incel psychology—the controversial and often misunderstood phenomenon associated with involuntary celibacy. In a thought-provoking analysis, Costello delves into Netflix’s portrayal of adolescence, unpacking the psychological layers that govern the lives of young men caught in the incel identity. This blog post aims to fact-check the key points raised in this discussion, offering a nuanced perspective on the intersection of media representation and the realities of incel culture. Join us as we sift through the assertions made by Costello and evaluate the cultural narratives surrounding this sensitive subject.
Find a fact check of this transcript on CheckForFacts
Transcript:
[00:00:01,000]: The film was powerful [00:00:03,099]: I thought it made some really important points [00:00:05,519]: I’m almost certain it’s going to cause a moral panic [00:00:09,159]: It’s somewhat disconcerting for me having researched this topic to see this show being brought up in Parliament [00:00:17,079]: Policy decisions from our politicians should be based on sober research rather than a piece of performance art [00:00:25,079]: Violence towards others and killing people mass shootings and things like that is not the only harm associated with incel ideology [00:00:32,700]: You have an opportunity cost of a generation of young men giving up on dating [00:00:38,060]: I should be clear that the evidence for these manosphere inspired violence like Jamie is very thin on the ground [00:00:44,639]: There hasn’t been a whole lot of cases like this [00:00:49,360]: Willem welcome to the show [00:00:51,180]: Thanks for having me [00:00:52,000]: It’s great to have you on [00:00:53,060]: You are a go to guy on all things to do with incels manosphere etc [00:00:56,659]: We had a great first conversation with you three years ago [00:00:59,560]: Now we’ve got this series on Netflix which is on course to be the most watched thing on there Adolescence [00:01:06,040]: You messaged us saying there’s a lot to talk about [00:01:08,400]: What did you make of it [00:01:10,199]: It’s making a huge splash and it’s shining a light on my topic of research the incel topic or the manosphere more broadly [00:01:19,319]: The first couple of things I’d really want to clarify from the outset is that it’s somewhat disconcerting for me having researched this topic to see this show being brought up in Parliament [00:01:31,680]: Prime Minister Starmer was asked if he’d seen the show if he’d have plans to play the show for politicians in Parliament and he said that he might [00:01:41,339]: He even misspoke and he described the show as a documentary at first which I’m sympathetic to a misspeaking [00:01:49,519]: But the fact that that might be the tendency to over inflate the remit of this show [00:01:57,000]: So in my opinion policy decisions from our politicians should be based on sober research rather than a piece of performance art no matter how powerful that piece of art is [00:02:08,199]: So that’s kind of disconcerting [00:02:09,979]: And I’d hope that the additional interest that the show has brought to this topic would shine a light on the real research on the topic rather than just the show itself [00:02:19,740]: Because the show itself it’s a piece of fiction and it’s not very typical of prototypical knife crime in the UK [00:02:28,759]: I think it is a plausible depiction of how incel violence may occur but there’s no typical instance of incel violence that this is based on [00:02:40,199]: There has been no case like is depicted in the Netflix show [00:02:43,960]: And the writers of the show are very clear in saying that this was inspired by what they call the epidemic of knife violence [00:02:52,100]: And they mentioned two specific cases that they were inspired by but they don’t give much detail about those [00:02:59,119]: And people are kind of up in arms speculating whether it was actually an instance of a black young man killing a girl [00:03:06,979]: They’re finding different instances that it may have been inspired by [00:03:10,600]: Now from my point of view as artists Stephen Graham the writer of the show he probably wanted to star in it himself and probably want to star as the father [00:03:20,600]: So it’s plausible that he would cast someone who could realistically play his son [00:03:25,240]: They also discovered a tremendous talent in Owen Cooper the 14 year old actor who plays the main character Jamie in the show [00:03:33,179]: So it’s plausible they would want to cast him as well [00:03:36,360]: But on the other hand if there are specific instances that inspired the show and you see all this speculation that people are saying oh it’s swapping the races and it’s damning the white working class people of Britain you could very quickly throw water on those rumors by highlighting which specific instances inspired the show or what inspired the casting [00:04:00,059]: And it could be nothing more than just saying yeah I wanted to play the father of the character and we discovered Owen he was a terrific actor and that’s it [00:04:08,860]: But there’s been nothing [00:04:10,199]: So yes while the show is a plausible depiction from my point of view of how violence like this might occur incel inspired violence it’s very important to clarify that it’s not typical of knife crime in Britain which I would wager is drill music has more specific instances of drill music inspired knife violence than incel violence or manosphere inspired violence [00:04:38,079]: So that’s one thing [00:04:39,660]: I do hope that the politicians who are interested in this topic now pay attention to research rather than just the show [00:04:48,019]: Yeah so that would be kind of my main hope for where we go from here and what happens in response to all this attention that the show has garnered [00:04:56,019]: We should say as well maybe a slight spoiler alert which is the show is about a boy who in a bout of rage triggered by bullying in relation with a girl stabs her to death and there’s an ensuing thing [00:05:13,679]: And it is very powerful [00:05:15,559]: It is very powerfully made [00:05:17,160]: And I thought that there were lots of things about it that were well presented and really important and interesting [00:05:23,839]: So you mentioned that I saw a big part of the conversation in relation to this being about the race of the people involved [00:05:32,440]: And you know I only slightly jokingly went well look at least it’s an opportunity for a young white male actor to get a job right [00:05:40,739]: But seriously give us the statistics [00:05:43,760]: Why is that a concern and why is that an issue [00:05:47,660]: So like I said last time on our episode about incels more broadly the worldwide body count associated with incel violence is massively overblown [00:05:59,279]: To pay attention to the media you would think that they were the most violent group [00:06:03,299]: But in terms of like a body count or how many people have been killed by incels it’s estimated that it’s roughly 59 people around the world in a handful of ideologically motivated instances of violence that are still somewhat contested how motivated by incel ideology they were [00:06:20,859]: So it’s actually what’s more mysterious is why there isn’t more incel violence [00:06:24,799]: And just to be clear the media is salivating about the opportunity to report on anything that even has the semblance of incel violence [00:06:33,220]: So it’s not like there may be more incel violence that we’re not aware of [00:06:37,140]: The media are on it [00:06:38,140]: Don’t worry they would definitely catch every example of it [00:06:41,380]: So there isn’t an epidemic of manosphere violence like is depicted in the show [00:06:47,519]: That doesn’t mean it’s not a pressing concern [00:06:50,040]: You do see teachers and people in schools particularly concerned about this topic [00:06:54,619]: And the broader problem of misogyny [00:06:57,519]: And you know the only harm violence towards others and killing people mass shootings and things like that is not the only harm associated with incel ideology [00:07:08,220]: You have a opportunity cost of a generation of young men kind of giving up on dating [00:07:13,079]: You have the mental health costs the suicidality figures that we talked about last time [00:07:18,660]: And you have the hostility to women [00:07:21,019]: You have these misogynistic attitudes kind of growing and infiltrating into people who aren’t just incels themselves but maybe are familiar with the topic [00:07:30,679]: And that was something that I thought the show did very well [00:07:33,940]: It depicts a 13 year old boy [00:07:36,279]: And one of the cops makes the point to his son when he’s talking about the kid [00:07:40,980]: He says what 13 year old isn’t an incel [00:07:43,440]: And what I thought the show did very well is that they showed that there’s a pressure on young males now to not be called an incel [00:07:52,720]: And the main character he was the victim of bullying from the girl he ended up murdering whereby she used incel as an insult [00:08:00,200]: And I thought that was pretty brave by the writers of the show to even depict the victim as potentially being a bully [00:08:07,700]: But the choice of incel as the insult of choice I think people will recognize that [00:08:12,940]: You see that online a lot [00:08:14,399]: And to derogate a man’s ability to achieve sexual success is a pretty sore one [00:08:20,839]: So I thought that was brave from the writers [00:08:23,160]: And it was plausibly done that Jamie the main character he just felt so publicly shamed on social media whereby a lot of people in his class were liking her comment where she called him an incel [00:08:36,840]: So it kind of shows the broader influence of the incel topic above and beyond just people buying into the full ideology themselves [00:08:45,359]: Because the show doesn’t unpack exactly how Jamie goes down the incel rabbit hole how much of the ideology he bought into [00:08:53,119]: It doesn’t even depart with much of what the ideology includes [00:08:57,080]: It shows just one pretty rushed scene of the detective’s son explaining just hinting at some of the elements of incel ideology that may have been a contributing factor to him murdering Katie [00:09:11,520]: But come back to the racial thing because there’s a lot of statistical research on this [00:09:16,260]: So break that down for us [00:09:17,799]: Yeah so I’m not familiar with the exact statistics about the racial breakdowns but I know that 13 year old white boys aren’t the highest represented in knife crime for sure [00:09:30,700]: I also know that even within Manosphere content so Andrew Tate is brought up in the show as being Manosphere [00:09:39,599]: And I thought the way in which the female detective brought up Andrew Tate it kind of shone a light on the confusion that a lot of adults and teachers and people have about this topic that she lumped Andrew Tate and incels all under the one umbrella [00:09:55,239]: She said that’s that Andrew Tate shite and it’s all the one thing [00:09:58,840]: Where in actual fact there’s a lot of distance between Andrew Tate’s red pill type of ideology and the black pill ideology of incels [00:10:06,200]: But in terms of the racial breakdown to get it back to your point the fans of Andrew Tate are disproportionately black followed by Asian and least of all whites [00:10:17,760]: So in terms of the young men who have a positive opinion of Andrew Tate I think it’s something like 9 of white boys have a positive opinion of him and it raises higher for Asians and it’s much higher for blacks [00:10:30,719]: So that’s something again that it didn’t really represent the research so accurately [00:10:35,760]: And for whatever reasons [00:10:38,599]: And William there was a stat that kept coming up which I have seen used time and time again plastered all over social media which is I think it’s 80 of women are only interested in the top 20 of men [00:10:53,500]: Is that actually true [00:10:55,679]: Or is this something that’s just repeated through the manosphere and used as an excuse to berate women and demonize them [00:11:04,179]: So like with a lot of things in the manosphere ideology and incel ideology there’s a grain of truth to the point [00:11:12,059]: Now it’s taken to a very blunt level of analysis and the 80 20 rule is a very crude breakdown and probably hyperbolic [00:11:21,020]: It’s hard to get an exact figure but there is such a thing as attraction inequality whereby more men are interested in finding more women attractive than the reverse [00:11:32,059]: And you see this kind of exacerbated in online dating [00:11:36,140]: We even have data sets ourselves whereby the kind of the Pareto distribution that most attention flows to the most attractive profiles [00:11:46,539]: That is a real phenomenon but it’s not as extreme as perhaps the 80 20 crude level of analysis that the incels talk about [00:11:55,119]: And it certainly doesn’t mean that 80 of men have no chance in the mating market [00:12:00,119]: I mean if we look around most men tend to do pretty OK eventually [00:12:04,960]: It may have got harder for young men in recent years but it takes this is kind of incel ideology does this or manosphere ideology they take a real phenomenon and run with it to a very extreme level of analysis and kind of nihilistic doomerism [00:12:22,479]: And because one of the things that the character Jamie talks about and says about himself is I’m ugly I’m ugly I’m ugly despite the fact he’s clearly not an ugly boy [00:12:33,900]: And when you think about it we are constantly particularly on the online dating market that’s how you were judged [00:12:42,299]: Whereas 20 or 30 years ago OK you might not be the best looking guy in the world but you can be charming you can be funny you can be really talented you can be an amazing musician [00:12:53,000]: We all know of people who weren’t the best looking but were amazing with girls when we were younger [00:12:57,940]: Yes and I just retweeted a study that came out very recently that examined online dating and it showed that physical attractiveness totally eclipses other factors in terms of success in online dating specifically [00:13:12,340]: So that like you’re saying if you’re swiped negatively on a dating app because of the physical attractiveness your other qualities don’t even get a chance to contribute to your overall attractiveness [00:13:23,299]: So that is one feature of modern dating that I would probably encourage society to try and rebel against is the funneling of all dating to the online apps [00:13:33,539]: You’re kind of encouraged to not meet your partner at work to not meet her at college things like this [00:13:38,859]: There’s fewer institutions [00:13:41,460]: Even recently a guy came to give us a talk at the University of Texas and he talked about how around the world church was often a mechanism for people to meet their partners [00:13:51,119]: If you talk about college being a mechanism for people to meet their partners you’ve got a massive sex ratio imbalance there where there’s way more women on the campuses now [00:14:00,760]: So the more you funnel dating towards the apps and there is some evidence that increasingly people are meeting their partner online that does kind of exclude physically unattractive men [00:14:12,520]: And a bugbear of mine it really excludes short men because that’s one very static metric that you could literally filter people out [00:14:22,700]: So to put that into context if women were to set their dating app filter American women to 6 foot or above they’d be filtering out the vast majority of their mating pool [00:14:34,280]: If they set it to 6 foot 3 and above even more [00:14:36,960]: So I think it’s just like 18 of American men are 6 foot or above [00:14:41,219]: So you’re really narrowing your window there or your pool of mates that you can even pick from and you’re excluding a lot of people [00:14:48,719]: And it’s also as well look the man or woman of your dreams might not adhere to this particular idealistic checklist that you have in your mind because what happens in your mind or online as we are consistently told is not real life [00:15:04,559]: Yes [00:15:04,960]: Just because somebody is a couple of inches shorter than what your ideal might be doesn’t mean that they’re not going to be a wonderful partner and have amazing qualities [00:15:13,460]: Exactly right yeah [00:15:14,460]: And it doesn’t give the chance for those other qualities to shine through [00:15:17,719]: But yeah people are increasingly living their lives online [00:15:22,080]: People are not interacting in real life as much not drinking alcohol as much and all of this is kind of reaching a point where in the modern mating market people are kind of going solo more than ever before which is interesting [00:15:36,520]: Coming back to adolescence one of the other things that I think it explores is this idea of toxic masculinity which is the kind of unconstructive manifestation of male anger [00:15:50,900]: I think really that’s kind of what they’re getting at [00:15:52,799]: And I saw there was a very clear line through from the way that the boy behaves particularly when he’s being interrogated by the psychologist or you know not interrogated but having the chat and the way the father behaves which I thought was a very interesting thing because I didn’t see the connection actually in the sense that the father is angry at stuff that a lot of people might be normally angry about whereas the boy clearly has a very corrupted version of that where he feels entitled to dominate other people to manipulate them with language and also physicality etc [00:16:31,679]: But the connection is often made and I feel like when it comes to the idea of toxic masculinity I use inverted commas that often happens [00:16:39,119]: Do you have any thoughts on that aspect of it [00:16:40,960]: Yeah so while you might say that the father had very clear things that it was understandable to be angry about I think Jamie’s teenage anger is kind of prototypical as well because yes he feels entitled to dominate or perhaps he feels pressured to try and assert himself that way because he’s so threatened by this precarious masculinity that if he’s called an incel he has to rectify that by challenging the girl that called him an incel [00:17:07,219]: He has to really prove to the psychiatrist that he is sexually successful [00:17:11,339]: He even makes up some lies about that [00:17:13,699]: And he does a very male typical teenager kind of oscillation between anger resentment cooperation charming [00:17:22,939]: I recognized that character up and down schools in the UK when I used to work in schools [00:17:27,999]: a very typical of that kind of confrontational approach to an authority figure [00:17:34,259]: So when I see some people online calling Jamie a psychopath I didn’t see much evidence of that [00:17:41,379]: I saw a few maybe perhaps hints that the show was trying to depict him as a psychopath [00:17:46,779]: One was that he tried to get away with the murder obviously the murder itself [00:17:51,579]: It didn’t depict him as this cold blooded killer who meant to go out and kill the girl [00:17:56,879]: It depicted this guy who went to confront her happened to have a knife that was given to him by his friend and things got out of hand [00:18:05,279]: Now the psychopathy hint that I picked up on was that he kept his shoes because they were too expensive [00:18:11,219]: He got rid of all his clothes to try and get away with the crime but he kept his shoes because they cost too much [00:18:16,139]: I thought that the show might have tried to depict him as a psychopath [00:18:19,339]: But in the psychiatry interview in episode three which is a phenomenal episode I just saw that typical somewhat low self esteem teenage boy who was trying to prove himself oscillating between cooperative and abrasive [00:18:35,779]: Yeah but I do think his anger is more about the pressure he feels to show that he’s not going to become an incel [00:18:43,779]: Because although every 13 year old boy is probably an incel the insinuation of the girl using it as an insult was that he would always be an incel [00:18:52,739]: And perhaps young boys people get the impression that everyone adults and teenagers get the impression that everyone is having a lot more sex than they really are [00:19:01,779]: The kind of the culture is sex saturated in advertisements and everything you walk through a city you’re kind of stimulated by sexual stimuli everywhere [00:19:12,799]: But in reality people are having less and less sex but people get the impression they’re having more [00:19:17,879]: So this pressure to prove yourself as not an incel I think that’s what he’s angry about and how understandable that is [00:19:25,659]: Well this is what I can ask you because your area of expertise is evolutionary psychology [00:19:29,859]: I imagine there are very strong evolutionary reasons why a male in a society would not want to be perceived as someone who’s sexually unsuccessful [00:19:38,699]: Yeah there’s a reason why it’s the insult of choice when you want to derogate a man [00:19:43,159]: Incel has now kind of become to function just as an insult [00:19:47,879]: Let me introduce you to the people I work with to protect my family against financial instability inflation and turmoil [00:19:55,219]: For me one of the best ways to safeguard your wealth is by investing in gold and that’s why I trust The Pure Gold Company [00:20:01,999]: The biggest financial players in the world central banks investment firms billionaires are quietly hoarding record amounts of gold [00:20:09,259]: Over 400 tons have already been shipped out in the past few months and major institutions are warning of delivery delays [00:20:16,079]: That means three things [00:20:17,619]: One the biggest financial institutions in the world are preparing for something [00:20:22,499]: Two gold is still undervalued or the bigger players wouldn’t be buying this aggressively [00:20:26,799]: And three if you don’t own gold yet now’s the time [00:20:30,979]: Here’s a smart tip [00:20:32,019]: If you buy UK minted gold coins like Sovereigns as I have done you won’t pay VAT when you buy them or capital gains tax when you sell [00:20:39,479]: All the profit is yours to keep [00:20:41,459]: And the best part [00:20:42,779]: Gold is a completely private investment [00:20:45,379]: It’s outside the banking system so it can’t be manipulated by governments or anyone else [00:20:49,419]: Unlike digital assets it’s yours in the truest sense [00:20:53,339]: The Pure Gold Company is trusted by first time investors and seasoned professionals alike [00:20:57,679]: What I really appreciate about them is their knowledgeable pressure free approach [00:21:01,499]: They explain everything clearly so you feel confident about your decisions and they never push you to buy [00:21:07,219]: Whether you’re looking to diversify your investments protect your savings or just gain the security of owning a real physical asset we highly recommend the Pure Gold Company [00:21:15,839]: Click the link in the description or go to pure gold co trigger to get your free copy of their investor guide [00:21:23,339]: Don’t wait until the next financial crisis hits [00:21:25,839]: It’s not a question of if but when [00:21:27,959]: That’s pure gold co trigger [00:21:30,999]: Take control of your financial future today [00:21:34,019]: What is unusual about the modern day incels is that they are the first group of incels throughout history as far as I’m aware to galvanize together around their victimhood and try and encourage other men to give up [00:21:47,659]: Now I’ve began to think more about this as thinking it may be even strategic because incels typically talk to each other anonymously [00:21:57,439]: So you actually don’t know what the person anonymous account 6565 is actually doing in real life [00:22:04,239]: So if you think strategically as a low mate value man if you want to level the playing field for yourself you might try to espouse this ideology that encourages the rest of young men to give up take the black pill stop trying [00:22:17,779]: The second thing that might be functional is the misogyny itself [00:22:21,179]: And I thought the show really picked up on that because it told the story of how Jamie tried to actually capitalize on what he describes as a moment of weakness in Katie the girl he ends up killing [00:22:33,139]: He heard about the fact that her nudes nude pictures got leaked around the year group [00:22:40,279]: And he thought that might be an opportunity where she was feeling weak [00:22:43,679]: And he tried to make a play to go out with her [00:22:46,599]: So this is how I hypothesize that misogyny functions [00:22:51,119]: The last time I was on your show I spoke about how within relationships people can choose the benefit provisioning strategy to keep your partner or the cost inflicting strategy [00:23:01,259]: So the cost inflicting strategy is to lower your partner’s self esteem so that she has a lower sense of her own mate value and feels like she can’t leave you [00:23:10,159]: It’s really dark stuff but it’s a well established finding that low mate value men use this strategy within relationships [00:23:17,879]: Now low mate value men are the ones that are most prone to misogyny within relationships and outside of relationships [00:23:24,759]: So what I hypothesize is that misogyny is trying to function to do exactly what Jamie was trying to capitalize [00:23:31,019]: It’s trying to lower women’s self esteem so they have lower standards and thereby you might have a chance [00:23:37,079]: Low mate value men when they’re abusing their partners they say things like who would have you except me so that the partner feels like they have to stay with them [00:23:45,299]: If you think about the misogynistic rhetoric in the manosphere or from incels in particular it seems almost special design functioning to try and lower women’s standards [00:23:56,659]: It chastises them for choosing Chad because incels often point out how the person most likely to abuse a woman is Chad the sexually successful man the partners they choose [00:24:09,959]: So they derogate women’s choices [00:24:12,339]: They also derogate women waiting remind women that they’re going to hit the wall at the age of 30 that past fertility their mate value is going to decline [00:24:22,879]: So the insinuation is they should settle down earlier [00:24:26,719]: All of these things seem to be functioning to try and lower standards [00:24:30,279]: So two things trying to encourage other men your competition to drop out and trying to lower women’s standards seem very functional in the way incels operate [00:24:39,499]: So that’s something I’ve become interested in lately [00:24:41,999]: It’s so interesting watching the show and also watching the discourse happening online where we talk about misogyny but it’s just this vicious resentment of women [00:24:56,779]: Yes and I should say that my interactions with incels and from what I can see they don’t seem consciously aware of this strategy if that is what they are doing if that is how the misogyny is functioning [00:25:09,499]: They very much do seem to buy their own ideology [00:25:13,419]: They do buy the black pill of dropping out [00:25:15,879]: And on the one hand you might say who having grown up it was the main concern for young men was trying to compete for women [00:25:23,739]: It was like a big business most important thing in your world [00:25:27,839]: What could encourage young men to just drop out of that [00:25:31,599]: But incels would see it that they get a lot out of incel ideology compared to the humiliation the anxiety the exhaustion of competing in a dating market that they see as unrewarding [00:25:45,139]: So with the incel ideology incels get a common enemy [00:25:50,059]: They get a black and white blueprint of how the world works [00:25:53,039]: They get a sense of fraternity with their fellow incels [00:25:56,459]: They get a trolling lexicon language to use that kind of encourages identity fusion with the incel identity [00:26:04,899]: They get an excuse to no longer participate in the mating market [00:26:09,379]: And perhaps they’re through pornography they find that their mating goals are they’re getting just enough to scratch the itch that they feel like they’re not totally evolutionary dead ends [00:26:20,079]: And that might be just enough [00:26:22,159]: What doesn’t come with pornography use is status [00:26:26,599]: So incels are very low in status [00:26:28,759]: It functions as an insult [00:26:30,599]: So that is still there should be motivation for them to go out and seek a real world mate because being able to be sexually selected is a cue of status [00:26:41,119]: It actually functions as your status as well [00:26:44,039]: So yes incels get a lot out of the ideology and the identity [00:26:49,179]: They rebel against what they see as the humiliation of the mating market [00:26:52,799]: And it’s kind of hard to say well actually they should keep trying in the dating market [00:26:57,339]: They should leave all those positives that they perceive from the incel identity behind and go get rejected 99 times more and I promise you that the 100th time you’ll get success [00:27:08,379]: And you and I might say yeah that is what they should do and it is worth it on the other side [00:27:13,059]: Everyone has to go through a bit of rejection and anxiety to achieve romantic success [00:27:18,439]: But for a generation of incels they’re kind of coming to the conclusion that the juice isn’t worth the squeeze and that’s maybe where we need to intervene [00:27:26,919]: And one of the things that the show really beautifully explores is the consequences of letting young kids essentially pubescent and prepubescent unfettered access to the internet and how dangerous that is [00:27:42,959]: Yes [00:27:43,119]: So the show kind of paints the picture that he tried a lot of different hobbies that the parents encouraged him to try lots of different sports and things like that [00:27:51,419]: And the only one thing that he was good at or enjoyed was his drawing and his art [00:27:56,499]: And he ended up leaving that alone in favour of the internet addiction [00:28:00,659]: And make no bones about it the internet is really addictive [00:28:04,239]: I mean we’re all addicted to some level or other to the internet [00:28:08,759]: So it’s very hard to imagine what that does to a developing brain a young male mind [00:28:15,759]: But I should be clear that the evidence for these manosphere inspired violence like Jamie is very thin on the ground [00:28:23,879]: There hasn’t been a whole lot of cases like this [00:28:26,839]: Yes it’s a plausible depiction [00:28:28,619]: But yeah perhaps it’s a broader problem of just rejecting other in real life hobbies in order to spend time online [00:28:38,079]: Also if the only place you’re learning about the dating market for a young teenage boy Jamie is an example of someone who’s very worried about it [00:28:48,379]: And it’s a fierce contest [00:28:50,459]: You become a teenager and you’re thrown into it [00:28:52,699]: And you don’t get any preparation for that [00:28:54,979]: In school they have sexual education classes [00:28:58,059]: But as far as I know they consist primarily of consent lessons and biological lessons about how sex works [00:29:07,479]: They don’t give any lessons on how do you actually become an attractive partner [00:29:11,379]: How do you attract your favorite sex [00:29:13,519]: How do you actually form flourishing relationships [00:29:16,519]: So it’s this black box that teenagers are in and it’s the most important thing to them [00:29:20,879]: And the only people giving answers to it are these pickup artists manosphere red pill tactics which will train young men how to achieve short term mating success that doesn’t lead to long term flourishing relationships [00:29:36,839]: And one point I’d really like to make is that there might be an opportunity to use as credible role models the developmental arc of a lot of these manosphere guys themselves [00:29:47,739]: So a lot of pickup artists or red pill people they achieve success in this short term mating game [00:29:54,759]: They win at the pickup artistry and they climb the mountaintop and they realize this is not fulfilling and they have a turn a change of ways [00:30:03,739]: They discover God or they completely change their ways [00:30:06,999]: You have Tucker Max as an example of this [00:30:09,199]: Dan Bilzerian is an example of this [00:30:11,299]: Neil Strauss who wrote the original pickup artist book The Game he had a total turn and wrote another follow on book which is terrific all about how he realized it wasn’t leading to flourishing relationships [00:30:22,379]: So I think that’s an opportunity for schools to actually build workshops around their stories because they’ll be seen as credible role models [00:30:30,659]: They’re not just some kind of stuffy adult teachers who don’t understand modern dating [00:30:36,719]: These are guys who won at the red pill game at the pickup artist game [00:30:41,039]: So they absolutely have to be perceived as credible to the young men who buy into this ideology [00:30:46,439]: Because when you see Tate and you know Andrew Tate and people obviously there’s a lot to criticize Tate for and all the rest of it and people go oh I can’t believe people fall for this stuff and his content [00:30:59,399]: But you look at his content through the eyes of a 12 or 13 year old boy who wouldn’t want to be that guy when you’re 12 or 13 [00:31:07,799]: Yeah [00:31:08,019]: You know you drive fast cars [00:31:10,299]: You know you live with your brother who also looks pretty cool [00:31:13,199]: You’re an expert at martial arts [00:31:15,359]: You’re buff [00:31:16,179]: You have loads of girls [00:31:17,779]: Yeah [00:31:18,279]: That’s kind of the ideal isn’t it [00:31:19,719]: And you’re a millionaire [00:31:20,759]: Yeah [00:31:21,059]: And it’s a tough challenge to actually you know educate young men about how that actually isn’t that fulfilling [00:31:27,099]: I mean he seems pretty fulfilled in the depiction he gives [00:31:31,419]: And yeah it ticks a lot of the boxes of what young men really like [00:31:34,879]: Fast cars lots of money lots of power good fraternity with his friends and brother like you said and lots of women [00:31:42,039]: So yeah it is hard not to crack but I think we do need to show young men that there are other status games to play and that for all the positives that comes with Andrew Tate whatever he’s got he’s detested by a lot of the world and he’s not seen as high status by many men [00:31:59,979]: And there is you know the long term flourishing relationship is the route to success for more men I would say [00:32:06,619]: And I think we need to champion that as a goal instead of the short term oriented stuff [00:32:12,759]: William one thing I think would be interesting for you to break down is what are the critical factors that are likely to mean that someone is going to be persuaded by these sort of ideologies [00:32:26,479]: I imagine you know in this particular film there’s a father and seeming like a pretty good father present [00:32:33,179]: He might not be there as much as he you know he thinks he should be or whatever [00:32:37,359]: But I imagine you know single parent household is going to be a strong contributor [00:32:41,439]: What are some of the markers that people watching can go well actually these are the things that I probably should address with my boy [00:32:48,019]: So one big risk factor is there’s a massive over representation of autism among incels [00:32:54,999]: And there’s many reasons why a young man with autism might be particularly vulnerable to the incel ideology [00:33:02,419]: So young men with autism they’re very black and white in their thinking [00:33:06,859]: There’s a lot of comorbidity with poor mental health [00:33:10,399]: Incels have really poor mental health [00:33:11,799]: So do young men with autism [00:33:13,119]: And when you’re in a state of really low mental health that’s when a black and white vision of the world really appeals to you [00:33:19,259]: You don’t have the cognitive bandwidth available to make sense of a complex dating market [00:33:24,599]: So you will absolutely find the black and white rule book of pickup artists or the incel ideology as appealing [00:33:32,959]: The young men with autism much prefer online networking without having to have in person interactions [00:33:40,219]: It’s a special niche interest that they get to have a hyper specialization that they get some status for [00:33:47,075]: There’s lots of reasons why young men with autism might be vulnerable and when captured by the ideology might be the ones that are particularly prone to extreme violence which is some troubling data too [00:34:01,055]: So that’s a huge one and the show didn’t really explore that [00:34:05,335]: Perhaps it was too big of a third rail to explore or too much of a narrow direction to go with [00:34:10,535]: But just to put that into context it’s likely that between 18 to 30 percent of incels have autism [00:34:17,635]: So I’ll break those figures down for you [00:34:20,795]: Some studies have found that 18 percent of incels self report having a diagnosis [00:34:25,955]: In our most recent research which is the largest incel study in the world we used what’s called the AQ10 scale [00:34:32,935]: And that’s not a scale to diagnose autism but it’s used by clinicians to assess whether someone is entitled to a referral [00:34:41,335]: So if you score 6 out of 10 on this scale or above you are entitled to a referral [00:34:46,775]: And 80 percent of people who score 6 out of 10 or above and get a referral go on to get a diagnosis [00:34:52,375]: So you’ve got a ballpark figure there of likely 18 to 30 percent of incels who have autism which is extraordinarily high compared to the general population which is for young boys between 1 and 3 percent [00:35:06,415]: So that’s a really crucial factor [00:35:09,435]: The fatherlessness I’m not aware of any specific data and I should have asked it in our most recent research [00:35:16,275]: But it seems likely to me lack of role models [00:35:19,735]: I think loneliness more broadly just lacking friendships learning about the world through online [00:35:25,995]: Those are all risk factors for the ideology [00:35:29,215]: And I suppose the obvious question I don’t know whether there is any research on this is I think this movie has resonated as much this series has resonated as much as it has because it speaks to two fundamental fears that parents have [00:35:44,535]: One of them is that the online world is something they don’t really understand very well [00:35:49,215]: You see that in the movie [00:35:50,655]: And they don’t know what’s happening to their children online [00:35:53,995]: And the other one is the fact that essentially their children now live in a world that’s completely different to the one that they lived in growing up [00:36:04,335]: So one of the things that I think is absolutely important that this movie raises is the fact that with online bullying children effectively can’t escape the environment of the school [00:36:16,975]: And so if they’re getting bullied at school they don’t get to go home and reset and have some space and peace and support from their parents [00:36:26,055]: So in terms of all of those things I guess the question a lot of parents will be asking is after watching that is like Jesus Christ that’s terrifying [00:36:33,255]: What can I do to help my son not fall into these traps [00:36:38,275]: Yeah I think you’re dead right to pick up on the bullying [00:36:40,875]: And we do have some data on that [00:36:43,215]: I think it was about 60 of incels in our study reported to have experienced childhood bullying and that compares to about 30 in the general population [00:36:51,575]: So a massive overrepresentation [00:36:53,575]: You do have to take that with a little bit of pinch of salt because incels as a group are very victimhood oriented [00:36:59,435]: They’re very high on rejection sensitivity [00:37:01,495]: So they perceive almost everything as a slight that they’re being rejected [00:37:05,915]: But there is likely a lot of bullying [00:37:08,755]: I mean there’s even bullying that occurs of incels right now [00:37:11,895]: So you could go on to a forum called Incel Tears which is a Reddit forum that basically is an online forum dedicated to bullying incels [00:37:20,635]: Now that bullying got so severe that they had to instantiate a rule [00:37:25,055]: That’s their number one rule [00:37:27,275]: No encouragement of incel suicide anymore please [00:37:30,875]: So that kind of gives you an idea of how extreme the level of bullying [00:37:34,375]: And to put the suicidality figures for incels into context 20 of incels said they thought about suicide or self harm every day over the last two weeks [00:37:46,695]: A further 33 of incels said they thought about suicide or self harm more than half the days or nearly every day [00:37:55,335]: So it’s a huge problem the suicidal ideation anyway [00:37:59,855]: How many incels follow through on committing suicide is an open question [00:38:04,275]: We don’t have confirmatory data on that [00:38:07,155]: But certainly bullying of incels exists [00:38:10,275]: You can go online now and open fire on incels in terms of how much you want to insult them and you’ll be applauded [00:38:17,055]: You’re going to get a standing ovation [00:38:18,515]: Right [00:38:18,835]: It’s kind of the only group that you can kind of punch down towards which is funny because Jordan Peterson talks about incels and he said I thought the marginalized were supposed to have a voice [00:38:29,155]: He started crying on Piers Morgan when he was kind of lampooned for being a hero to these guys [00:38:35,335]: And he said sure why not [00:38:37,175]: Don’t the marginalized need a voice [00:38:39,055]: These young men don’t know how to make themselves attractive to women [00:38:41,975]: I thought that was a really powerful message for Jordan Peterson to give when Piers kind of challenged him on that [00:38:49,695]: But yeah so there is likely a lot of bullying but the idea of the parents it’s a nightmare for parents [00:38:54,935]: And I think that is true [00:38:55,955]: And the show very effectively depicts that there’s a lot of confusion from the teachers and the parents about this topic [00:39:03,295]: And the police [00:39:04,035]: So what can parents do [00:39:05,215]: What advice would you have for parents who just want to make sure maybe their son is a little bit autistic or they think he might be maybe he doesn’t have that many friends [00:39:13,455]: You know if you’re looking at that as a parent what can you do to help your kid [00:39:17,675]: Yeah [00:39:17,895]: I mean you’ve got to kind of keep an eye on what they’re engaging with and consuming and kind of give counter message to any you know false belief that you if you hear your son espousing black pill incel beliefs try and show him role models in the real world of men who aren’t the most attractive still going on to form relationships [00:39:39,005]: That would be one opportunity [00:39:40,535]: The idea of credible role models is so important [00:39:44,085]: My friend Chris Williamson talks about the importance of cultivating a positive online content diet [00:39:51,435]: So it used to be that you became the average of the five people you spent most time with [00:39:56,135]: Well if you think about now people aren’t hanging out as much in real life [00:39:59,875]: It’s more like you’re the average of the five podcasts you listen to most probably more likely [00:40:05,335]: So parents do need to keep an eye on [00:40:07,495]: I’m not kind of draconian about shut down the internet ban the phones [00:40:11,895]: I really don’t think that’s realistic or even desirable [00:40:14,875]: But I do think parents need to be aware of what their sons might be engaging with and maybe try and direct them towards different content [00:40:24,535]: And at least yeah [00:40:25,575]: So the parents in adolescence they did leave it themselves in the dark [00:40:30,655]: They even chastised themselves in the final episode that they should have gone into his room check what he was watching and be more involved in that way [00:40:39,155]: So that’s something parents are [00:40:40,655]: But there’s no need to panic [00:40:41,975]: I don’t think there’s you know it’s debated about the mental health effects of social media for young people [00:40:46,935]: That’s a very hotly contested within the literature at the moment [00:40:51,495]: But specifically about manosphere inspired violence and things like that [00:40:55,275]: There’s absolutely no need to panic and let that be the reason why phones are banned or any sort of draconian measure like that [00:41:02,275]: Sometimes in life you just need a secret weapon [00:41:05,875]: Maybe it’s that one joke that always lands at the pub or a dish you can whip up that makes you look like a Michelin starred chef [00:41:12,535]: Well I’ve got both of those things in my back pocket obviously [00:41:16,395]: But my real secret weapon it’s Mack Weldon [00:41:20,235]: Because when it comes to looking good without even trying Mack Weldon has it sorted [00:41:24,715]: Their timeless style performance fabrics and hidden details make every piece feel like it was designed to give you an edge without making a fuss about it [00:41:33,195]: I’ve been wearing their Airknit underwear and I have to say they’re ridiculously comfortable [00:41:38,195]: I’m wearing it now [00:41:39,335]: The fit is spot on not too tight not too loose just effortless [00:41:43,075]: And the best part unlike other performance clothings that can look a bit well you know synthetic Mack Weldon gear just looks like classic stylish clothes while feeling like the best kept comfort secret [00:41:56,595]: If you want clothes that work as hard as you do without shouting about it Mack Weldon is the way to go [00:42:02,795]: Get timeless looks with modern comfort from Mack Weldon [00:42:05,955]: Go to MackWeldon com and get 25 off your first order of 125 or more with promo code TRIGGER [00:42:16,755]: That’s M A C K W E L D O N com promo code TRIGGER [00:42:25,695]: One of the topics explored and I think it’s something we all forget when we were kids particularly when we were all young boys is the importance of sport and being good at sport and being accepted [00:42:38,395]: Because that’s a number one way as a young lad that you gain status [00:42:42,495]: If you’re good at football everyone goes oh he’s a great footballer [00:42:47,175]: And you know girls like that et cetera et cetera [00:42:49,675]: So it was quite a profound moment for me as someone who was rather crap at football to see that he was rejected and mocked because of his lack of sporting ability [00:43:01,335]: And then it was a theme actually [00:43:03,635]: It was brought up many times [00:43:04,955]: And then Stephen Graham’s character said how the adults used to mock him when he was in goal [00:43:10,455]: So you understand why he wants to withdraw from the physical realm if he’s physically not able to participate in team sport [00:43:20,275]: Yeah sport is kind of low hanging fruit for this kind of magic bullet that’s going to fix if you direct young people towards sport that it’s positive for a lot of people [00:43:29,815]: But it doesn’t really help the guys who aren’t that into it or don’t like it or can’t flourish in that arena [00:43:35,515]: But the overarching point is the importance of finding status hierarchies that do work for you [00:43:41,875]: So for the kid Jamie it could have been art [00:43:44,895]: That should have been promoted more and he could have [00:43:47,375]: But when you’re in school you’re in a very narrow status hierarchy [00:43:51,535]: There’s kind of school there’s popularity and there is sport [00:43:55,175]: There’s not an awful lot else [00:43:57,235]: Once you get out of school and you go into adulthood you can kind of self direct towards loads of different status hierarchies and you could form one of your own [00:44:06,975]: It could be gaming it could be art it could be music [00:44:09,655]: That’s the beautiful thing about humans is we can form status hierarchies around lots of different niches which is important [00:44:16,235]: So that’s one piece of advice I’d give to parents is help your young person find their niche find something that they like [00:44:23,295]: But the problem is a lot of young people tell their parents I don’t like anything [00:44:27,995]: They’re increasingly hard to entertain [00:44:30,055]: They’re bored [00:44:30,595]: And the only thing that entertains them is the online world [00:44:33,835]: So it is I mean it’s the number one desired career now is influencer or YouTuber [00:44:39,315]: So that’s kind of perhaps troubling in terms of young people’s interests [00:44:44,255]: Because when you look at [00:44:45,875]: You can’t all be like us [00:44:48,395]: Because when you look at the series depiction of school and as someone who used to teach myself it’s not inaccurate [00:44:57,195]: So you think well how can somebody actually develop and cultivate interests and passions and hobbies when you’re in an environment which is so brutal which is so dog eat dog [00:45:11,995]: Why wouldn’t you [00:45:13,335]: If that’s reality I’m on Instagram mate [00:45:15,835]: I don’t want to be there [00:45:16,735]: Yeah I thought it did a terrific job [00:45:18,375]: And I’ve experienced working in schools as well [00:45:20,955]: It highlighted how overstretched they are [00:45:23,455]: It depicted the male teacher coming in late to the class with his shirt untucked [00:45:27,855]: He’s burnt out [00:45:28,975]: He even says to the detective what do you want me to do with these kids [00:45:32,055]: What can we do [00:45:32,935]: And that’s very emblematic [00:45:34,935]: You can imagine so many teachers get burnt out like that [00:45:37,435]: It’s so hard to retain a teacher longer than five years when they start the career [00:45:41,335]: So that’s a huge problem that the show hinted at [00:45:45,735]: The school system also hinted at that when you’re in school you’re kind of trapped with the best and the worst of your peers [00:45:53,715]: You have to kind of deal with them [00:45:55,335]: And you can’t really get away from it [00:45:57,075]: You have to deal with them somehow [00:45:59,695]: And once you get out of school you can kind of not do that [00:46:02,915]: You can direct your life into you have much more autonomy over your life [00:46:06,235]: So a lot of people used to say school is the best days of your life [00:46:10,015]: And a lot of young people used to tell me as a careers guidance counsellor that is a terrible message because if this is the best it’s going to get worse [00:46:20,055]: They hate it [00:46:20,675]: They hate school [00:46:21,315]: So they don’t want to hear that this is the best days of their life [00:46:23,975]: For many people it’s probably not [00:46:25,375]: And that’s OK to say you’ll have more autonomy in your life after this [00:46:29,715]: I thought the school depiction was also good in that it depicted the male aggression from the teachers and perhaps that was having an influence on Jamie absorbing that [00:46:40,635]: But it also depicted that the young boys particularly in the class will respond to male teachers in a different way than female teachers [00:46:49,835]: And I think if you talk to a lot of teachers they’ll recognise that too [00:46:53,895]: And that’s not necessarily out of like misogyny but it’s out of sex differences [00:46:59,415]: You are not going to get angry or give as much cheek to a larger male than yourself when you’re a teenage boy [00:47:05,875]: And I’ve seen that in all boys school that young boys were a lot more cheeky to female teachers [00:47:11,235]: So that shows the importance of not only just male teachers but male teachers who aren’t going to get burnt out like Mr Malik [00:47:19,555]: And they’re going to actually be motivated to stay in the career and be positive role models [00:47:24,615]: But that’s very difficult for them to do right now [00:47:27,775]: So yeah lots going on with the school system and the part that plays [00:47:31,395]: And one of the things that it showed as well is because the teachers couldn’t control the kids then the propensity for bad behaviour but also violence [00:47:44,795]: And I was talking to Constantine afterwards and I was saying if we actually as a society dealt with that type of behaviour in kids the violent and the threatening and the abusive as we did with adults you would see a lot of kids getting arrested for GBH assault etc etc [00:48:05,455]: Yeah that’s kind of what I was talking about [00:48:06,995]: When you’re at school you’re trapped with the best and the worst [00:48:09,995]: And it brings down the good kids who don’t want to be violent in school but they have to kind of be trapped in with students who want to fight and disrupt everything [00:48:20,675]: What the film shows I think that school looked to me as someone who unlike you two has never worked in a school [00:48:27,995]: When I looked at it from the outside I was like this is a very badly run prison [00:48:31,975]: That’s what it looks like right [00:48:33,835]: And you know it’s interesting [00:48:35,035]: You say the male teachers were aggressive [00:48:37,375]: I didn’t read it that way [00:48:39,375]: What I saw is the inmates are running the asylum and people who are supposed to be in charge are doing their best to cope with that fact [00:48:49,095]: They’re not actually in charge [00:48:51,515]: So I don’t understand how much learning is going to be happening in that environment [00:48:55,155]: And if any if I’ll be honest with you as a parent the one thing it really made me think about is do I even want to put my kid in a school [00:49:02,795]: So I think we’ve got you know you’ll be both of you will be much better able to talk about this [00:49:09,115]: And France has got a whole book about teaching coming out [00:49:12,195]: But one of the things that seems to me is that there are just there is a complete lack of discipline and respect towards the adults in that environment [00:49:20,735]: Yeah absolutely [00:49:21,535]: And that was my reading of it as well that it was just this crowd control [00:49:25,235]: And a lot of teachers will tell you that that’s their experience that they get burnt out and they are just managing the behavior for the most part of the class [00:49:33,995]: And yeah people have different reactions to the way that school was depicted [00:49:38,335]: And people who don’t have the experience in school they think oh that must be just a terrible school [00:49:42,715]: And I don’t know it was pretty typical [00:49:44,875]: I’ve been in a lot of schools [00:49:45,975]: And yes there’s a massive gulf between the good schools and the poor schools [00:49:50,755]: But [00:49:52,212]: That was pretty typical in the United States [00:49:56,652]: Yeah that will be terrifying I think to a lot of people especially middle class people [00:50:02,072]: Yeah that school was pretty typical [00:50:04,272]: I’ll be honest I’ve taught in schools worse than that [00:50:06,372]: But just for people who haven’t seen the film I mean in that school you’ve got pupils assaulting each other left right and centre telling the teachers to fuck off [00:50:14,572]: I mean we could go down the list but it’s basic [00:50:16,792]: It is not a place in which the adults are in charge [00:50:20,432]: Yeah and my girlfriend is a clinical psychology student and also does supply teaching in schools [00:50:26,212]: And her critique of the show was that the psychiatrist was a little bit easily rattled for what a psychiatrist working in prisons should be [00:50:34,732]: She commented that well I hear a lot worse than that and receive a lot more anger from the teenage children in a school on an average Tuesday than in a prison [00:50:43,392]: So yeah I think that the show did try to depict that that the school system and even the prison system it drew parallels between them but how ineffective they were [00:50:53,232]: You hear in the prison it’s just behaviour management overall [00:50:57,112]: There’s no rehabilitation happening in the prisons really [00:51:00,812]: And perhaps you can question how much learning is happening in the schools as well [00:51:04,432]: And one of the themes that kept coming up was the theme of screens [00:51:09,092]: And you know you saw the kids on their phones you saw you know talking about the computer in the room but also there was the screens in the school [00:51:18,832]: And I thought that was very interesting [00:51:20,832]: I remember I mean bear in mind this was nearly 10 years ago [00:51:23,972]: I remember a question I got asked in an interview which was why can’t you have an outstanding lesson without the use of a screen [00:51:31,712]: Interesting [00:51:32,432]: Yeah [00:51:32,632]: Yeah [00:51:33,152]: And even when Mr Malik he was kind of depicted as this inept teacher and his go to move was let’s play another DVD or let’s put another film on [00:51:42,972]: And that kind of is the go to move for the burnt out teacher is just play something [00:51:47,532]: And you can kind of draw parallels to parenting there as well [00:51:50,412]: It’s so tempting to just pawn your kid off on the screens even from a toddler up to a teenager very hard to entertain them [00:51:58,772]: A lot of young teenagers now go to their parents and say I’m bored [00:52:03,892]: If I ever went to my father and said I was bored he would make work for me [00:52:07,932]: You’d never never do it because that’s what his response would be [00:52:11,792]: But parents now talk about oh I don’t know how to entertain my kids [00:52:15,912]: So it’s very tempting for them to just say well at least they’re interested in something [00:52:19,752]: They spend time on their computer [00:52:21,452]: Well I was going to slightly disagree with you [00:52:23,652]: Maybe it’s not disagreement [00:52:24,952]: Maybe we’re just talking about different things [00:52:27,632]: Would you not be in favor of banning phones in schools [00:52:31,792]: In schools during the school day [00:52:33,232]: Perhaps I would [00:52:34,392]: Yeah [00:52:34,892]: Just because I can’t see why you’d be able to concentrate on a lesson while you’re actually on the phone [00:52:39,972]: Like there’s a reason we don’t all have our phones here [00:52:42,852]: Yeah [00:52:43,332]: Yeah [00:52:43,692]: Right [00:52:44,112]: Because we’re concentrating on the conversation we’re having [00:52:46,732]: Yeah [00:52:46,872]: And if the goal of school education is the Latin to lead out to prepare for the world there’s not really many workplaces where you’re allowed to just be on your phone with your colleagues with your boss around for sure [00:52:58,852]: But maybe they’re trying to change that too and say people should work from home more [00:53:03,192]: But that’s a different topic I suppose [00:53:04,832]: But let’s broaden it out William because I’ll be honest with you [00:53:08,792]: I’m not in favor of anyone below the age of 18 having social media [00:53:12,492]: I don’t understand why you need social media [00:53:15,432]: That’s not what you need to be doing at that age [00:53:19,052]: I’m going to sound old [00:53:20,332]: You’re going to need to be learning [00:53:21,772]: You need basic reading writing literacy [00:53:24,012]: You need to be numerate [00:53:25,152]: And this is a time in your life where you want to be learning skills so that when you go out into the world not only the world of work but also life you’re fully prepared for it [00:53:35,072]: But isn’t the counter argument to that exactly what you just said which is to be fully prepared for the modern world you do have to be familiar with all these tools and these technologies [00:53:43,092]: I mean we’ve had people working for us who’ve come to us at the age of 18 and they know more about YouTube than we do [00:53:50,452]: Yeah but look at the state of them [00:53:52,092]: But there’s also perhaps a larger point again that perhaps the online worlds are actually kind of distracting young people a lot [00:54:01,132]: So take sexlessness for example [00:54:03,432]: That’s the big kind of concern a lot of people are concerned with now [00:54:06,692]: But if you took it 20 years ago the concern was too much underage sex [00:54:11,432]: And teenagers were having too much sex [00:54:13,872]: Whereas now they may be distracted from all sorts of kind of bad behaviors by the online worlds which aren’t perfect aren’t great [00:54:20,192]: And obviously there’s dangers like manosphere ideology incel ideology all of that [00:54:26,172]: It’s the world’s largest status game [00:54:28,152]: You can get bullied at enormous rates by people dogpiling onto you online [00:54:33,912]: But it might be actually this distraction occupying people on screens might be actually buffering against real world violence [00:54:41,752]: So there is some data from sexual violence that wherever pornography increases sexual violence instances go down [00:54:49,812]: So on a societal level it does seem to distract otherwise sexually violent men [00:54:56,032]: So that might be actually one reason I spoke about with you last time why incel violence isn’t actually worse [00:55:01,712]: Because typically you’d think increases in sexlessness among young men that’s a recipe for disaster [00:55:08,512]: We call it the young male syndrome [00:55:10,332]: But this modern generation they aren’t out there status striving and causing chaos in the streets for the most part [00:55:17,732]: But they are up to trouble online [00:55:20,552]: So it’s kind of choose your poison really [00:55:23,572]: There may be a way to try and regulate the sites a bit more [00:55:28,512]: But I think the genie is out of the bottle really in terms of whether you can take it away from a generation now [00:55:35,532]: And do you worry that I have to be honest with you I thought the film was powerful [00:55:40,472]: I thought it made some really important points [00:55:43,212]: I am almost certain it’s going to cause a moral panic in which there are going to be all sorts of overreactions [00:55:50,832]: An example you know Francis and I were talking about this after watching it [00:55:54,392]: You know those harnesses that people have two year olds on in Britain [00:55:58,612]: That happened after I think the Jamie Bulger killing [00:56:00,992]: And Jamie Bulger wasn’t killed forgive me because she wasn’t on a dog lead [00:56:05,732]: Do you know what I mean [00:56:06,572]: And the way the parents do that like my wife looks at that in horror right [00:56:11,372]: So do you worry that there’s going to be another [00:56:14,172]: The reason I ask this is like when I was looking at some of the stuff that this film portrays I was thinking do you know what [00:56:21,112]: When I was a teenager and I was going on like gaming forums or playing video games the sort of that I would have said and people were saying [00:56:29,452]: Yeah [00:56:30,372]: If you put that in the cold light of day in an interview room in a police station I mean there’s probably dozens of hate crimes being committed in that space right [00:56:40,452]: Because young boys especially talk a lot of shit try and get a reaction say all kinds of crazy nonsense [00:56:47,532]: And they have done I imagine since the dawn of time [00:56:50,632]: Yeah it’s nothing new [00:56:52,292]: I even saw Stephen Graham the writer of the show he gave one interview where he was up in arms where he was horrified that he heard reports from some parents who have teenage daughters who even said that their boyfriends were requesting pictures of their genitals [00:57:08,732]: And I thought OK that’s a lot of teenagers boys and girls are going to be sexual with each other [00:57:14,832]: I don’t think that’s crazy [00:57:16,712]: It’s not a sign of a pornified generation that is doomed [00:57:21,192]: I don’t think it’s insane that young men would want to be sexual with young women like that [00:57:27,492]: So yeah there is a danger of a moral panic [00:57:30,452]: And these overzealous control measures are always brought in under the guise of safety [00:57:37,252]: It’s we need to protect and often children young people are always the ones they say we need to protect them [00:57:44,232]: And that’s how a lot of tyrannical governments kind of put in these overreaching far reaching mechanisms of control [00:57:52,092]: So what would you like to see with your knowledge of this area [00:57:56,232]: What do you think the government and also parents could be doing to really try and tackle some of the issues raised in the film without overreacting [00:58:05,272]: So I think one thing that would be good is to implement kind of relationship formation acumen lessons into the sexual education that they get [00:58:14,812]: I’m not sure the extent to which that’s done or if it’s done at all [00:58:18,452]: My intuition is that it’s not [00:58:20,012]: I don’t think there’s anyone training young people how to be a more attractive partner [00:58:25,292]: And people might bristle at this idea of well how can you train people [00:58:28,932]: But actually we research this stuff [00:58:31,032]: You can you can absolutely train people on how to improve their mate value how to learn about how the mating market works [00:58:37,072]: And that’s an enormously valuable thing to do [00:58:39,632]: And I think they’ve introduced it in a lot of universities in East Asia now [00:58:43,432]: Actually where they’ll go on practice dates things like this because if you don’t fill that gap vacuum Andrew Tate and Red Pill pickup artists will [00:58:54,712]: So you have to offer them something from schools [00:58:58,832]: Now the trouble is people teaching in schools sorry Francis we tended to not be the most credible role models right [00:59:07,232]: It’s very difficult [00:59:08,392]: So finding the people to do that [00:59:10,372]: This is my show mate [00:59:12,532]: Well you’re still single so that hasn’t helped [00:59:15,312]: It’s a hard gig but something like I have in mind is let’s take online dating apps [00:59:20,392]: You could have a workshop where the boys and the girls learn how to cultivate a better dating app profile [00:59:26,012]: What does the other sex respond to [00:59:28,292]: What works [00:59:28,992]: And it could be a fun thing [00:59:30,172]: I imagine you’d have a full classroom full of young people that day when you’re learning how to do that [00:59:34,472]: And you could make a fun out of it without it being too spicy [00:59:38,492]: But I don’t know [00:59:39,372]: But also as well William I think the thing is look you’ve got to be honest with boys [00:59:44,812]: And you go when you’re starting out for the vast majority of you it’s going to be tough [00:59:50,712]: That’s just the way it is [00:59:52,132]: That’s the way the mating market works [00:59:53,952]: And you can complain about it and you can whine about it but it’s not going to change anything [00:59:58,592]: But this is your time now for you to work hard learn skills [01:00:03,432]: You can leave school at 16 you can train to become a gas engineer where you can earn in a few years 100K a year [01:00:10,832]: You can learn how to play guitar [01:00:12,532]: There’s so many things that you can do that if you’re just willing to put in the time and have a little bit of deferred gratification eventually you are going to get the payoff [01:00:22,452]: Yeah absolutely [01:00:23,272]: Even if the only variable you took into account there was age [01:00:27,332]: So as you get older more women are interested in you [01:00:30,472]: Then when you’re 14 or 15 there’s only your age and maybe younger are interested in you [01:00:36,432]: No one older [01:00:37,632]: But as you get older there’s younger and older interested in you so that broadens the pool [01:00:42,232]: But yes there’s opportunity to accrue more status and you’re not stuck in this violent status game of school which is really kind of scary for a lot of young boys I imagine [01:00:52,672]: So yeah there is opportunity to age out of insult them for sure [01:00:56,252]: But I think motivating them with the goal of if you achieve status in these ways education intelligence a good job being reliable that comes with the reward of being sexually selected [01:01:09,572]: I don’t think anyone is saying that to young boys [01:01:12,512]: It’s not used as a motivational tool in schools but perhaps it should be [01:01:17,372]: It’s one of the main things that motivates young men is the promise of being sexually selected [01:01:22,472]: They kind of are maniacally driven to do whatever is rewarded by the opposite sex [01:01:27,472]: So the mind of one sex shapes the body and the mind of the other and we’re motivated to respond to whatever is rewarded [01:01:35,072]: So that could be leveraged to help young boys be motivated [01:01:39,292]: Absolutely [01:01:39,892]: And as well if you actually just say to them look lads things are going to get better because the reality is part of what this lad was feeling was teenage angst which we’ve all gone through [01:01:55,132]: Every single one of us has gone through [01:01:57,032]: And he said and I found it quite upsetting because it reminded me of what I felt when I was a kid [01:02:02,172]: I was like I’m not good at anything [01:02:04,312]: Well number one we know that probably isn’t true because he was good at art [01:02:07,872]: And number two of course you’re not going to be good at anything [01:02:11,132]: You’ve just started your life [01:02:13,292]: You know it takes a while to get good at things [01:02:15,832]: Absolutely yeah [01:02:16,632]: So it would have been the lesson there would have been for the parents to really double down on his artistic skill what he was good at and really foster that rather than letting him get kind of distracted into other status games and think that oh being incel at 13 is the worst thing in the world [01:02:34,932]: I need to prove that I’m not [01:02:37,132]: He should have been just fixating on a longer game and developing himself [01:02:40,352]: Yeah because like you say a young boy at 13 every 13 year old boy is an incel but they needn’t be so concerned about it [01:02:49,352]: And that was one thing I thought the show did well in depicting that this is a modern concern [01:02:54,772]: I thought they did really well in the show to juxtapose Jamie’s experience of worrying about forming relationships and learning about it on the internet and panicking about it and letting it affect his self esteem so much [01:03:07,872]: They juxtaposed that with his father’s experience who Stephen Graham isn’t the most handsome fella but he’s depicted as being very funny in school in the show [01:03:20,032]: And that’s how he met his mother at school [01:03:22,332]: But it kind of contrasts it [01:03:24,952]: It was a lot more straightforward of an experience [01:03:27,792]: You meet someone at school [01:03:29,192]: You go on to form a relationship with them [01:03:31,572]: Whereas now the modern dating market is very very complex and novel and the parents don’t know how to prepare young people for it [01:03:38,472]: The adults barely know how to adapt to it themselves never mind train the next generation of what it’s going to be like [01:03:44,512]: So I think we have to try [01:03:46,312]: And yeah preparing them [01:03:49,412]: If online dating is where it’s at that needs to be built into the lessons [01:03:53,312]: That’s important [01:03:54,352]: How do you not get filtered out [01:03:57,592]: How do you shine if you can in whatever ways you can [01:04:01,452]: William it’s been an absolute pleasure [01:04:03,492]: Thank you so much for coming on the show [01:04:05,872]: We always end every interview the same way with the same question [01:04:10,212]: What’s the one thing we’re not talking about that we really should be [01:04:12,852]: Well you guys are talking about it and your audience are because I know you had Stephen Shaw on to talk about the birth rate collapse and the population collapse [01:04:21,652]: But just to kind of some tangential points to that I would talk about unwanted childlessness among women specifically [01:04:28,952]: So a lot of what Dr Shaw talks about it but that’s something we really need to reckon with [01:04:34,412]: How are we going to adapt to a world with a really aging population [01:04:38,332]: Because the fertility crisis or the population collapse yes it’s concerning to me as an issue in and of itself but people tend to think oh what is your solution [01:04:48,632]: Just roll back women’s rights for a hundred years and make them have babies they don’t want [01:04:55,232]: That’s not my solution [01:04:57,232]: I’m just messing [01:04:58,012]: But at the very least women should be able to have the amount of children they want [01:05:02,052]: So this is against their own desires [01:05:04,792]: So I would maybe [01:05:06,452]: Neither sex is happy with the way things are [01:05:08,032]: Right [01:05:08,352]: And I would be in favor of perhaps even going as radical as subsidizing egg freezing for young women [01:05:14,332]: Young women shouldn’t have to choose between career or children [01:05:18,812]: What matters in terms of bringing a child into the world is the age of the egg and the amount of eggs you can work with from the start [01:05:25,992]: The age of the body of the woman is actually less consequential [01:05:31,192]: There are a lot of problems with IVF [01:05:32,492]: It’s not as reliable as people like to pretend [01:05:35,272]: And I wonder you know the point you’re making with the choice between a career and children I don’t know if that square is ever going to get circled or whatever the expression is [01:05:45,872]: Perhaps but if you pumped money into R D to make this technology even better giving young women the most chance to do whatever they want with their eggs if you harvest them at the most you can early on then women can have children they can sell them they can do their career and they still have their autonomy but they don’t encounter this unwanted childlessness [01:06:06,992]: And I think that’s an epidemic that isn’t spoken about enough [01:06:09,732]: That’s kind of the equivalent of male incels is the unwanted childlessness [01:06:13,872]: And they often cite the reason of not being able to find a partner who measures up to their standards as one of the motivating factors for the unwanted childlessness [01:06:23,992]: William thank you so much for coming on [01:06:25,992]: Head on over to Substack where he’s going to answer your questions [01:06:30,452]: Who is available to influence positive masculinity that isn’t from Gen X and above [01:06:36,592]: How much is a lack of empathy fueling the violence in societyTranscribe your media with TRNSCRB.
Transcribe multiple languages, effortlessly. Chat with your projects. Enhance your workflow.